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Also ja, es geht auch mit anderen Armeen!
Hmm.. An Skaven oder O&G mit Masse hatte ich nicht gedacht...
Aber du hast natürlich Recht! MSU heißt ja nur dass man vergleichsweise wenig Punkte pro Einheit (max. 150-200) aufstellt. Nicht dass diese zwingen "klein" sein müssen...
Der Author der Schlachtberichte hat übrigens einen recht umangreichen MSU-Guide für Hochelfen geschrieben, in dem er seine Erfahrungen mit diesem Spielstiel gesammelt und zusammen gefasst hat:
Zitat von "Swordmaster of Hoeth"Alles anzeigenHigh Elves MSU - observations - v.1.1
1. Introduction
After 30+ games with MSU (Multiple Small Units) army I think it might be good to get some summary on the observations I have made so far. I really like the concept of the army and I enjoy playing with it a lot. In fact, I have never enjoyed Warhammer as I am enjoying it now!
Bear in mind I am simply sharing my experiences. I do not aim to prove that this is the best way to play with High Elves. Please, do not treat it as a proper tactics article either. I do not have enough experience to write one. Which is good as I can always add something new! I am sure I will learn a lot with more battles and with more different opponents and armies I am going to meet.
You are more than welcome to add your thoughts and share your own experiences. I am writing this with particular army and style of play in mind but there are elements which can be used elsewhere
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2. General principles
MSU idea appeared for the first time on Druchii.net in 7th (or maybe even 6th) edition. Back then it relied on the principle that if you kill enough enemies then there will be no one to hit you back. Thanks to that a small regiment of elite warriors charging from the flank could break much larger unit of less skilled soldiers simply by the virtue of more attacks it could deliver at the same frontage.
With 8th edition a lot of new rules appeared. In particular steadfast and step up seemed to favour big hordes and nothing else. No matter how many foe small regiment can kill there always will be some more to fight, especially that it is hard to break them on the charge and after that they can reform to bring more warriors to fight. This would mean war of attrition in which small elite regiments are often doomed. It looked like MSU armies have no right to be efficient anymore.
However, MSU can still be as good approach to the game as any and what is more it can also use new rules 8th edition provides to its advantage. SmithF reintroduced the concept and I recommend his excellent topic on MSU in general as well as battle log (which he started to update with new reports again):
Here, I am going to to talk about MSU from the point of view of High Elves.
The main principle of MSU approach is that with more units you are able to use movement phase more efficiently to create much more favourable combats than just when you clash two big regiments head to head.
Example
3 units of 10 Swordmasters can set up a trap for 30 Warriors of Chaos. By fleeing with one the other two can attack the flanks of the bigger regiment.
It is of course an ideal situation but illustrates the principle very well. Big unit of Chaos Warriors uses horde rule to maximize the number of its attacks but only to the front. Instead of engaging it head to head in bloody combat Swordmasters surround its flanks and while hitting with their full number of attacks, they robe bigger unit of its advantage. Only 3 warriors at each flank can fight, they cannot use horde and step up attacks rules and are also engaged from both flanks which means they will not be able to reform if they are not going to break first. In such situation small units would also sustain smaller amount of damage than a single unit fighting from the front. Even if big unit of warriors is going to hold after an initial attack they will melt quicker in subsequent rounds of combat.
Basically with the advantage of having more regiments it is possible to control movement phase better so that one can have an opportunity to create situations where even big and dangerous units can be defeated.
3. MSU army components
I am going to describe components which in my opinion the HE MSU army requires to have to operate properly.
3.1. Multiple Small Units
It is important to understand that “small” is a relative term. Some other armies, with access to cheaper soldiers may still have successful army lists which at the same time contain regiments with 20-30 warriors. “Small” is more connected to the point cost of a unit. Even in High Elf force one can use regiments of 20+ Spearelves in a similar fashion as with more regular forces and it will not be against the principles of MSU army.
My personal approach is to have regiments with cost 150-200 points and only with some exceptions if I feel it is justified to do so. With many, relatively not expensive regiments you do not present juicy target, you confuse the enemy as to what to attack and even if you lose some unit that loss is significantly smaller and not as crippling as it might have been in the case of bigger unit.
3.2. Characters
The same goes with characters, if I include expensive ones and/or many of them I might find out I do not have enough points left to have significantly more regiments than my opponent thus denying myself the advantage to out-deploy him. A hero in HE army, fully equipped is worth 150-200 points. It is the cost of a regiment in an MSU army.
This is not to say that you should avoid including characters. If you have a good idea for a hero then go for it! Just remember that with MSU army such an expensive target will be even more tempting for the enemy to focus on. And this is something you want avoid too.
It is also important to try and assign multiple roles for your expensive heroes. With so many small regiments some of the typical builds for characters might not be as efficient or as necessary. For example, BSB with Armor of Caledor and Dawnstone does not add that much to MSU army as he does to the unit of 35 Spearelves in a more traditional force.
My own approach is to take the minimum of characters and for me it means the Archmage as a magical defense and BSB for his re-rolls and ranged attacks (Reaver Bow). They are still expensive and fragile so it is crucial to keep them safe.
3.3. High Strength/Numerous Attacks
MSU army relies on inflicting multitudes of wounds while minimizing attacks hitting it back so it is important to include units which provide high strength and numerous attacks. Swordmasters, White Lions, Dragon Princes but also Spearelves and Lothern Sea Guard can be very useful here. If you choose to pick only one type of unit it can be as good as variety of them as long as you know how you want to use them.
Personally I go for variety so I can better use the tools I have. Sometimes it is better to send Swordmasters in, sometimes White Lions have the edge and sometimes a lot of S3 attacks LSG and/or Spearelves provide can be much more useful.
3.4. Stubborn Troops
It is quite important to have some stubborn regiments in the MSU army (since we don’t really have Immune to Psychology units I am not going to talk about it here). It is because sometimes you can force a charge from the enemy, hold it in one place and thanks to that you will be able to attack its flanks. There are many foes who can inflict 10+ wounds to our fragile elves so be careful how you use small units of White Lions. However, it is one of the very useful options when Lions get close to the enemy, block their movement or at least limit the options and force a difficult decision. To charge and suffer from 10+ ASF, S6 attacks and be flanked later or not to charge but receive the charge following turn.
3.5. Shooting
MSU army is a combat orientated one but it does benefit from some bow fire and some players like to include war machines too. It is mainly to get rid of support units of the enemy so that the control of the movement phase is better, even if MSU force usually can deal with such regiments in close combat too.
Concentrated fire on a big horde unit might seem to be a waste of arrows but it can be useful to break steadfast during incoming fights and because of that every arrow counts!
There are also targets, such as fanatics or lone models which can be troublesome (or deny victory points if not destroyed) but which can be easily finished off with 10 archers.
3.6. Support troops
As much as it is tempting to use only heavy hitters in your army with a minimum of Archers there is a great need for support regiments in MSU army. The most often use of such units is to divert powerful foe so that other units can swarm on other targets or to position it in a less favourable way.
Other duties such as war machine hunting, wizards hunting or fighting against enemy support troops can be performed by such units. Great eagles, Ellyrian Reavers, chariots or shadow warriors can all be used to great effect.
Units of Archers, Sea Guard and Spearelves (especially when suffered casualties in the game) can be used for that duty too. In general it is worth remembering that each unit can always have (or should have) a secondary role to play so that you are never out of tactical options and there is always a way to come up with another plan.
3.7. Magic
Magic phase is a beautifully complex one where you aim at the best use of the power/dispel dice you have at your disposal. Winds of magic can be fickle but spells are what makes that game so colorful (literally if you look at colors associated with each lore :)). There are many aspects of magic that are present in the game:
Active magic defense
Main role of Magic I chose for the army is defensive rather. It is there to provide better chance to dispel enemy spells. From that point of view a single Archmage, who also acts as a general and inspires nearby troops (Ld9 is always better than Ld8 after all), is usually enough to provide very reasonable protection. His +5 to dispel roll is very good indeed. To further increase his abilities I add Annulian Crystal from his magic items allowance. High Elves have other very good Arcane items which can boost magical defenses but I personally find the Crystal the best option. I will talk more about other items later when I am going to analyze particular army list as an example.
Passive magic defense*
Dispelling enemy spells is not the only way to prevent the enemy from getting the best of their magic phase. There are many deadly spells out there which have limited range. For example, Death Lore has some powerful spells which target your characters but are short ranged (or require more dice to cast in order to have more powerful version of the spell). It is beneficial then to position your characters accordingly so that they are not even a viable target. In order to be able to hurt your characters the enemy has to close in but by doing so he risks getting into charge range of your elites which might not be a great idea for many wizards (even if accompanied by their bodyguards). Even if you force them to cast more powerful version of a spell it is already a success as they need more power dice to do so and will attempt to case fewer spells while at the same time risking some miscasts.
Some players go even further and do not take level 4 wizard at all. They either take 2 level 2 for more diversity or a single level 2 for absolute minimum of magical protection. What this approach can ensure is that usually powerful and devastating spells which can kill entire units with characters in them seem to be much less spectacular when used to destroy 10 warriors with a single level 2 mage. They often require considerable amount of power dice and again the enemy risks a fatal miscast. It might be a good exchange even if your opponent loses his Grey Seer in order to cast Dreaded 13th spell to remove such a small regiment.
* paragraph added thanks to feedback from SmithF
Magic offense
It is not to say, however, that a single Archmage is not able to cast spells successfully. Hence it is also important to consider Magic Lore to support your MSU army. Yes, to support. Magic can be the main weapon of the army but it is not so in MSU force. You need to be prepared for phases when magic is not strong enough to get your spells through and still be able to win. If you, however, can cast spells then it will be a nice bonus.
I think that any magic lore can be used for MSU army. It is really a matter of taste and personal approach. Of course, Life spells for example seem to benefit horde formations more but as always it is up to the player to make his tools workable. There is nothing to say you cannot have support mage and/or Banner of Sorcery in MSU army either. Just remember it is costly investment and one more mage is one less regiment.
No matter which way you choose it is important to consider how easy spells from particular Lore are cast. With single Archmage you might find it quite difficult to cast powerful spells so maybe it is a better path to go for spells of a less spectacular effect but which can be cast easier. You also need to know exactly in what way you want your magic to support your troops.
I chose High Magic because it has cheap spells to cast and any choice of spells you end up with will help. They are not as spectacular as some spells from the rulebook but I managed to use them to great effect in my games and there were a few times when they did have a huge impact.
No matter which magic lore you are going to choose it is important to plan your magic phase accordingly. You should not cast your spells at random just because you can. The order of spell casting and amount of dice used is very important. In order to better understand how magic phase can be executed to the full effect I highly recommend following article by Brewmaster_D. Although Brewmaster is using completely different approach and heavily relies on magic to win his games, his thoughts and ideas are very good to follow for anyone: Magic Phase Strategy
3.8. Command groups
Some regiments have them some don’t but wherever it was possible I included musicians. They are essential for swift reforms and add greatly to the maneuverability of the army. They are the first members of the command groups I take.
Some regiments have champions. I have found out it is handy to have them here and there to stop powerful character. Champion can challenge thus ensuring the unit will remain steadfast for a turn. This can help to organize the defense better and even make a counter charge in the following turn if required or buy that extra turn for the rest of the army.
Some other units have banners. One reason is to increase fortitude points for Blood and Glory scenarios but can be useful in combat too. On the other hand I wanted to avoid too many of them as first they decrease the number of warriors and second give free victory points which are far easier earned from small regiments.
3.9. Sacrificial Units/Baits**
Great Eagles are probably the extinct species by now considering how often they are sacrificed for greater good. However, simply placing one in front of the enemy regiment is not going to spring the trap you set every time you do so. Your opponent knows that by such placement you want to achieve some kind of advantage. It may be time advantage (delaying him for a turn), space advantage (slowing him down) or both.
But it is also a very obvious situation and your opponent might not fall for it and might try his shooting and/or magic to get rid of the eagle but to maintain his formation and deny any further advantage. What is more he is not going to separate his units so that you can charge him from all sides. Basically, you need to find out a way to make it attractive for him to abandon his positions or to force him to make hard decisions.
The harsh truth of the game is that some of your units will die. But you can decide when and how they do so (and maybe thanks to that they will also survive the game too!) not your opponent. In general I am reluctant to sacrifice units (elven life is very precious) but in dire situations it might be the only way to win the battle.
Hence you can combine both and make the sacrificial regiment attractive enough to be attacked and use that for setting up favorable situations.
Example
In this game I faced a tough challenge in the form of WoC army with big frenzied troops. I could not handle Chosen regiment in the frontal assault and in addition I wanted to separate two enemy units to deal with them separately. I had to use quite desperate solution because we played Meeting Engagement and my enemy started much closer to my lines than usually and I had less time to obtain good positions.
In this situation I sacrificed Archers so that frenzied Warriors would overrun in the direction I wanted (away from the Archmage) and at the same time I exposed Swordmasters for Marauder attack. Both enemies charged and decimated my small regiments. However, Warriors were out of position and could not catch valuable foe until the end of the game while Marauders first lost many of their numbers from first Swordmaster unit attacks and then were finished by the flanking charge of the other Swordmaster regiment.
Example
This time I faced dreaded Skaven in Watchtower scenario. My goal was to first, separate two main regiments of the enemy, i.e. Clanrats with Screaming Bell and Plaguemonks with Plague Furnace. I wanted to focus on Screaming Bell unit and try to destroy it while at the same time keep the Monks busy and away from the tower. To do so I kept moving Great Eagle and Archers units in front of it and angled it in such a way that they had to pursue/overrun away from the tower. I sacrificed 300 points to do so but plague monks and the furnace have never reached the tower and any meaningful combat.
** paragraph added thanks to feedback from SmithF and inspiration from joey_boy and his Wood Elves MSU article: WE MSU
Zitat von "Swordmaster of Hoeth"Alles anzeigen4. Army List Examples
I am going to describe the choices I took for my current Army List (which is constantly evolving) as an example. Then I will also present a different MSU army list for comparison.
4.1. My current army list
Archmage, Annulian Crystal, High Magic – 300
Army general and its only spell caster. His main duty is to provide +5 dispel bonus. To further augment his defensive skills he has Annulian Crystal which helps enormously. He is also very vulnerable so I need to be very careful with his placement.
As I have mentioned before he uses High Magic, a very versatile although less spectacular magic lore. Its strength also lies in low casting values so even with very weak winds of magic he is capable of casting some spells.
In the meantime I have also tried some additional equipment such as Dragonbane Gem (2+ ward against flaming attacks), Bow of Seafarer (bolt thrower) or Folariath’s Robes (immune to non-magical attacks). The Robes are quite useful and I might yet find out myself returning to that item. The bow was an interesting experience but his BS4 is a little too low for such a potent weapon to be used to the fullest.
There are plenty of other useful items for this character and I am sure I might try some new equipment but his main role is the same regardless. Provide magical defense, inspire nearby troops and support them with cheap but useful spells whenever possible.
Battle Standard Bearer, Heavy Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Reaver Bow, Dragon Helm – 174
Battle Standard Bearer seems to be a must in every army and MSU force is no exception, although in this case his usefulness comes mainly for all other Ld tests and slightly less for break tests. High Elves have good Ld but they are still not immune to psychology. You might be surprised how many tests your army is forced to take in one game, especially against undead and daemons. This re-roll is very handy and you should make sure your BSB is close enough to lend it to units which need it the most. He cannot be everywhere and it is even more so in the case of MSU army, often widely spread across the battle field. That is why his initial placement and moves later in the game should be considered carefully.
Since our characters are expensive and there are few of them in MSU army there is even a greater need to use them in multiple roles. That is why BSB is equipped with a Reaver Bow. With his BS6 these 3 S5 shots per turn can be very helpful. He can wound tougher targets, he can hit obscured ones with better chance and can be the bane of lone characters too. You can treat his bow as an equivalent of a magic missile with that difference that he always has 3 shots but does not suffer from miscasts and does not take away power dice.
Great Weapon is a very useful addition but he is not to take part in combat unless absolutely necessary. Even then it can be very risky as his armour is not that great and he can be relatively easily wounded and killed. However, GW and ASF make sure that some of the enemies will think twice before they attack him or unit he joined.
2 x 10 Archers, Light Armour, Musician – 2 x 125
Very good support troops, add a little long range firepower, useful mainly in weakening lightly armoured targets so good at killing enemy support regiments from afar.
Sometimes can also be used as a flanking regiment and since they also benefit from ASF rule it can be as good option as any. They are not shock troops so do not expect them to do much against close combat specialist and it might even be a suicide. But timely charge at a flank of an enemy in narrow formation in addition to the charge to the front can give you that extra +1 from flank charge and might disrupt enemy ranks too.
In dire situation they can also be used as diverters and be sacrificed to enable other regiments to destroy the enemy unit but that is not their primary role.
Light armor might look as a waste of points but I include it due to the fact the miniatures I use do have armor and once in a while I am glad I have that 6+ armor save as there are some enemies who do strike at S3. 1 wound less might be that 1 wound difference between the victory and defeat.
2 x 15 Lothern Sea Guard, Full Command – 2 x 220
They are included for their versatility. Additional 30 bows can help in quicker elimination of support troops and is always annoying for the enemy, no matter of they really inflict any damage. However, they are not archers with better armor. They can and often should be used in combat. Or at least make a threat they can.
I really like the fact I can keep them moving and still be able to shoot. They are not going to fight on their own but their additional rank, especially when charging from the flank, can be very helpful. They are not that big unit either and are not as strong magnets to template weapons as Spearelves in deep formation can be. Although I noticed that my enemies still try to target them with such attacks.
They are not easy to use as their role is not well specified and depends a lot on the enemy they face. They even can start the game as archers to join the fight where required to turn into archers again if some stragglers need to be finished in the last turns.
Their strength lies in flexibility and I really like them in my army as there is always something for them to do. Either in shooting or movement and combat phases.
10 White Lions, Musician, Banner of Eternal Flame - 178
10 White Lions, Musician, Gleaming Pennant - 173
First two regiments out of six heavy hitters I included in the army. Probably the most versatile units too as they are as good in attack as in defense. Due to stubborn they often are used as baits which are difficult to ignore because they can attack following turn but when charged can deal significant damage too. Banner of Eternal Flame makes them perfect monsters hunters and with many deployment drops there is always a way to position them in the right spot to do so. Gleaming Pennant is excellent if the unit needs to operate outside of the BSB range but has to perform anvil duty and stop some powerful enemy long enough for other regiments to be able to counter charge. They often occupy the center of the line (or close to it) as it is the best position to intercept enemy units and are close to help other regiments.
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord, Amulet of Light - 183
10 Swordmasters, Musician, Bladelord, Talisman of Loec - 178
The most killy units of the army and kind of its special forces. It is amazing how much fear they cause in opponents even at such a small number. I have run units without Bladelords so far but I included them to have magical attacks and Talisman of Loec is an experiment. They used to operate closely with Spearelves when I used them so that they did the killing while Spearelves added static combat resolution and together they were very good teams even for frontal attacks against some units. Now they are a junction between sea guard and lions and often these 3 units operate as a task force, supporting each other.
They are of course very fragile. Any protection they can get is good. For example I sometimes placed them behind single line of White Lions to provide additional -2 to hit penalty if the enemy wanted to shoot them while Lions benefit from their Lion Pelts protection.
As dangerous as they are they might have problems with 1+ armor save and are definitely better against anything that is not that well protected. That is why they often can operate with Lions so that sheer number of attacks prevails one way or another. Having said that small units of knights are usually equally quickly defeated by Swordmasters as by Lions. Even chaos knights and knights of Empire might be very reluctant to charge them in the frontal attack. Only Mournfangs and Demigryphs are dangerous enough to win against them in one-on-one combats (and usually on the charge) so it is important to choose fights wisely.
2 x 5 Dragon Princes – 2 x 150
Many players think cavalry has no use in 8th edition anymore. It seems some got used to the fact that knights used to break any foe in a single glorious charge. It is not that easy when infantry can be steadfast.
Some player like to field big units of heavy cavalry with powerful characters. A typical hammer unit which can indeed deal a lot of damage.
But what about small heavy cavalry regiments operating without powerful but expensive characters? I think they still have uses and can be great too. Hence 2 units of 5 Dragon Princes each instead of more Swordmasters or Lions.
Dragon Princes are still shock troops in this army but although they are not able to pack as many attacks on narrow frontage as Swordmasters and they hit with S5 instead of S6 like Lions they have the advantage of armor and charge distance. There are enemies out there which are quite dangerous to small infantry units. Chariots are very good example. Their impact hits mean ASF is less of an asset. Often the enemy can have 2 or more of them heading towards a single unit and small regiment might not even survive to hit back. Dragon Princes are good at intercepting such threats.
Since they have a longer charge range and benefit from swifstride rule their charge is more likely to hit home even at longer distance. They can perform a swift outflanking move and be ready for a coordinated charge when infantry might need another turn to get to the position.
They can be very good at destroying enemy shooters as they can withstand the fire infantry is much more vulnerable to. They can double as war machines hunters and monsters hunters, especially that the enemy beasts cannot stomp/thunderstomp them.
If I could find some points I would give them musicians too as they are even more efficient with their swift reform ability.
2 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Bows, Spears, Musicians – 2 x 112
Light cavalry also seems to be less popular choice. They don’t hit as hard as heavy cavalry, are more expensive than eagles and take away points which could be spent on other special regiments. What is more with so many units do one really needs another fast regiment?
While it is all true I really like them in my army and I think the difficulty in their use is similar as with Sea Guard. On the first glance they seem like a unit which is not good at anything in particular and on top of that other regiments can do specific things better. But the more I use them (and Sea Guard too) the more I am glad to have multi-purpose regiments as they greatly add to the flexibility of my army.
First thing Reavers add is redundancy. While I have eagles to divert and hunt war machines they are often first targets for shooting and magic missiles. Reavers can do that to and it is more difficult to get rid of all of them quickly. They also hit harder than eagles thanks to re-rolls and more attacks so can be used as shock troops too. My reavers hunted down a little more resilient troops such as chariots or Razorgors thanks to their speed, spears and ASF. They are also much more efficient at destroying war machines, especially from Dwarven armies.
Flexibility is also the reason why I equip them with bows. Sometimes having only 5 shots is not great. But sometimes you only need to inflict 1 more wound and your archers might be in bad spot or simply you don’t want to waste so many arrows. Reavers are usually close enough to have that 4+ to hit after they moved and it is more difficult for the enemy to hide from them. There is also kind of psychological effect to that as people tend to make mistakes when annoyed by light cavalry shooting at them all the time. And they always can aim at the same target as other units so I can focus the fire for greater effect.
Last but not least their ability to flee and then reform and keep moving is a great asset. It can help you to bait the enemy so that they break formation and then return to the position where they cannot be attacked but which enables them to go to the rear. Their speed and maneuverability is a huge asset and a weapon in itself although not as straightforward in use as in the case of other regiments.
2 x Great Eagle – 2 x 50
The eagles are so useful for any type of HE army that there is a separate topic about tips and tricks how to use them. They are as much needed in MSU army despite its greater maneuverability. They are very handy when there is a need to trap that big, fat enemy unit so that your regiments can position themselves for a proper charge next turn. They add to the number of units which are annoying to the foe and which are much faster than any other in the army.
The only thing I would add to any way you want to use your Eagles is that I always try to position them so that they are not easy target to aim at (if possible of course). If there are no cannons having them behind heavy cavalry helps. I also try to keep them until it is absolutely necessary to use them so I do not fly them to the front of the enemy turn 1 just because I can. Reavers are much better at that as they can flee and return to the fight next turn. Eagles are too precious to sacrifice them just because they are worth “only” 50 points each. It might be that they are indeed sacrificed very often but make sure it is really for greater good. The longer the eagle is around the more dangerous it is and the better your situation can be.
This army list is not final version. I don’t think I would ever be able to have one. Things constantly change, the fact new books are released is one reason for that. Another is my growing experience with different armies. There are a lot of them which I haven’t played against yet so it might happen that I will recognize the need to include something I haven’t yet to be prepared for yet another threat. I will probably not be able to have a perfect solution for everything but at least I will find out with which tools I am most comfortable with. For comparison, have a look at the army which was suggested to me long time ago and which was the force I based my first list on.
4.2. Another example of HE MSU army
Archmage, level 4, Jewel of the Dusk – High Magic
BSB, GW, Dragon Armor, Radiant Gem of Hoeth, Pidgeon Plucker Pendant – High Magic
2 x 10 Archers, Musicians
2 x 20 Spears, Musicians, Standards (one with Banner of Eternal Flame)
3 x 10 Swordmasters, Musicians
3 x 10 White Lions, Musicians
2 x 5 Dragon Princes, Musicians
3 x Great Eagle
Harder hitting force and more combat orientated. Other than that I leave it to you to compare two armies and find out which one you like better and what might be differences in some crucial details about their way of fighting.
Zitat von "Swordmaster of Hoeth"Alles anzeigen5. Deployment
Assembling army list is only the beginning. Deployment of your army on the battle field is a very crucial thing and for me it is separate phase of the game. It is not rare occasion when a game is won or lost at this stage.
Deployment is very important for MSU army because it aims to out-deploy the enemy. It may seem to be easy with more regiments than typical enemy armies have but it does not mean MSU force can deploy in random order and fashion. Since it supposed to give an advantage one has to think how to do so properly. Besides with many regiment it is also easy to end up with crowded formation when units do not support each other and even stay in the way preventing charges and adding to the general confusion.
Deployment depends on many factors. Apart from the enemy army list, which is kind of obvious, there are following things I try to take into account:
5.1. Terrain.
Sounds obvious but it is important so it is also worth reminding. I try to quickly discuss each piece of terrain and its effect it can have on units or line of sight. It also makes it clear for the situations later in the game and there are no nasty surprises.
In particular I look for forests and rivers/lakes as if I can draw the enemy into combat while his unit remains in such terrain then they cannot be steadfast and cannot claim rank bonus. Very good situation for my army as it can deal a lot of wounds and win against otherwise difficult to break enemy such as horde regiment or a unit with deep ranks.
Another important terrain is the one which forces dangerous terrain test. It is good to enter such area with your infantry as it makes a good defensive position against chariots and cavalry. Sometimes you can combine effects and have also protection against shooting if you are in the forest on some kind of ruins.
I am also learning how to use buildings to my advantage, it seems obvious to put some shooters in there as they can target units around the building and have good defensive position (although sometimes it can be a trap so be warned and do not enter the building which is in the range of an organ gun!).
5.2. Scenario
I am aware that many players do not use scenarios in their games but for those who do (and I recommend doing so, as it spices up the game and you can always modify some victory conditions to make them more “fair” :)) a few reminders.
If your are playing Blood and Glory it is obvious you don’t want to risk your banners in the same way as during Battleline so take that into account and even change the deployment order to make sure you can place most vulnerable regiments in the safe(r) place.
In the Meeting Engagement in particular and in some other scenarios it is worth remembering you are much closer to the enemy. Even if you have first turn there is a chance your opponent can steal it from you (on a roll of 6) so be prepared for that too and do not deploy in a way they you can be charged instead charging yourself.
Example
In the game against TK I won roll-off and had a great chance to move first. I wanted to use that to my advantage and positioned Dragon Princes forward. They could attempt charges turn 1. If I failed charge rolls nothing bad happens as I can flee with them to safety and use them later on. But if I succeeded then I could potentially break through and have opened path to vulnerable artillery behind. If my opponent stole the initiative it is still ok as majority of my army is further back and cannot be engaged early.
5.3. Going second
I am used to the fact I am going second. That is why I deploy in such a way that I can take that into account. It usually means I deploy my regiments a little further than the edge of deployment zone so that the enemy shooters need to move to get into range. If possible, and with 24” range of some troops it is the most common situation, I deploy 6” away from the edge so that even if they move they are out of range anyway.
On the other hand some of my regiments could have some good targets to attack (cavalry in particular) so it pays off to consider such placement that enables first turn charges. Even if they are long ones it is worth risking as I have enough units to follow and protect the regiment that failed their charge roll while if it works it can be a surprise for the enemy. What is more, if the target of the attack is broken then cavalry can be behind enemy lines in no time too. (see example from Meeting Engagement section)
Going second affects the light cavalry too. I need to take into account the fact that if I move towards the enemy they might be in shooting range so I try to prevent that (although there were games when I did the contrary and suffered the consequences). I might vanguard them to try and draw some attention and early charges which is good as they can flee, rally and move again. Vanguard move can also position them on a good spot to charge in my turn 1 with even greater chances of success so if there is a good target for them I try to do so.
5.4. Order of deployment
I often start with deployment of Archers, LSG and Reavers because these regiments usually occupy the centre of my formation (in the case of infantry) and Reavers are going to vanguard anyway (although I do not use it to redeploy or change direction as it is quite risky and adds to the confusion). If the enemy does not have war machines such as cannons I can then deploy my eagles. If he does, I wait until he deploys them and try to position the birds where he cannot aim at them or at least where it is safer (relatively of course). I then try to make sure they are more than 6” away from other units to prevent panic tests unless the regiments are close enough to BSB to get re-rolls. But even then, if possible, I try to avoid that. Then I proceed to position my heavy hitters.
Example
Here I made a crucial mistake. I knew I am facing doom divers which are very dangerous for my heavy cavalry but I still deployed them outside of the influence of the BSB. I lost one unit of DP who then panicked another heavy cavalry and nearby Swordmasters out of the board. It was heavy blow and I had to fight an uphill battle with 2000 point army against 2500 one. I didn’t manage to recover from that.
But it is not the rule and sometimes it even pays off to keep Archers and LSG as last to deploy as otherwise they might have no good targets to shoot at or their priority targets can be obscured, out of range etc.
5.5. Formation
With so many regiments the battle line MSU army is going to form can be wide. It helps to envelope the enemy with smaller number of units. Because of that the centre is occupied by infantry while the flanks are controlled by cavalry. Since I have 2 unit of each regiment it can even be symmetric. The advantage of that formation is that the enemy cannot say if there is any part of the formation that is more important. Placement of characters can sometimes tip the balance slightly to one side or the other but even then not so much.
Example
Symmetric formation with strong flanks and fire base at the centre gave me the opportunity to envelope the enemy quickly, set up some traps and shoot at him without other regiments blocking line of sight. At the same time he had difficult choice to make as whether to split up his force or to keep it tight but go against one half of the army leaving the other half unchecked.
It is of course not the only way of deploying troops and often it is not even the most common one. Sometimes formation is forced by scenario such as Dawn Attack. Sometimes a form of refused or weighted flank can also be beneficial.
Example
(Reproduced from the army list topic of Elithmar of Lothern - Link)
Suspecting that big archer unit is carrying Banner of Eternal Flame I positioned Dragon Princes in the center so that they can cover the distance to the enemy fire base quicker and with smaller chance of being intercepted. Shooting regiments took good defensive positions in the forest but are close to respond to the threat from the Eastern flank and to support other troops.
Combat infantry supports each other and 2 regiments can move swiftly to either reinforce cavalry or turn to the center to engage the enemy. At the same time other 2 units protect fire base and threaten the flank of the opposing army if it decided to attack my cavalry. Last but not least light horse can either harass enemy advance or use the forest to attack from another flank if heavy cavalry had difficulties in destroying support elements of the enemy army.
There were just 2 examples of how formation can look like, one is symmetric the other one is asymmetric. But by no means they are not standard deployments and I doubt there is even such a thing. There are a few points, however, that I have found quite important in assembling your regiments for battle. In no particular order:
- Support each other – this is true at any stage of a game (if possible of course). Try not to leave any regiments in a position that when it is charged you cannot counter attack in your following turn. A little twist here and there means that your angles are right and there is no situation when the enemy attacks and you cannot attack back because you cannot really see it although it is 2 inches away.
- Use terrain – there are usually more benefits from being in some kind of cover with unit unless we are talking about cavalry. In that case it might be better to position them relatively in the open to avoid dangerous terrain test. In all other cases you can always use that -1 to hit penalty for the enemy when your troops are in the woods or that they have to make a dangerous terrain test while attacking your unit in the ruins.
- Avoid crowd – as I have shown in one of the examples being too crowded may result in unlucky chain effect of failed panic tests or in a situation when rallied unit blocks friends from moving or charging the enemy. If possible use check board formation so that units have gaps through which to withdraw or to move forward.
- “Living Shield” – having said that you should not be too crowded there might be some exceptions when it is better to position units close together. In particular some kind of “Living Shield” can be used but fortunately without entirely sacrificing troops, merely using the ones with better protection to give some of it to their friends. For example, single rank of White Lions can nicely protect Swordmasters staying behind them from enemy shooters as they have more difficult choice. To shoot at Lions without penalties but knowing they have 3+ armor save against shooting or at Swordmasters with additional -2 to hit penalty. The same can be done with Dragon Princes and Eagles and even when you position one Reaver unit behind another it can be good as you would probably be able to save one of them. Even more so with Shield of Saphery on the front line regiment.
- Task forces – form units into task forces. They might be as small as 2 regiments or as big as half of the army. They will operate on their own then but with particular goal in mind. You can change task forces during the game depending on the situation and how quickly you achieve with them what you wanted to gain.
5.6. Characters Placement *
Characters are very important for the MSU army as for any other. However, due to the usually spread formation the influence they have over some regiments is limited. For example, forces with small number of units can create a protective area of 12" radius where majority of the army can benefit from re-rolls to Ld tests due to proximity of their BSB as well as higher Ld value thanks to the Inspiring Presence of their general.
MSU army can and should use this advantage as well but due to its nature it is less likely that all the unit will benefit from that. It is very important then to consider where to place precious few characters to help the regiments the most. In the case of the Archmage it also should be a relatively safe place but close enough to the enemy so that he can cast his spells (24" as maximum range for spells from High Magic). BSB is also taken to inspire troops and with his Reaver Bow he should be in 30" from the chosen target too.
High Elves are disciplined troops but even with Ld8 the odds to fail some tests are high enough. There are many situations where such tests simply have to be passed or otherwise carefully prepared plans might fail. One way to address that problem is to assign each character to separate flanks of the army formation.
Example
When fighting against fear-causing enemy you are going to take a lot of Ld tests. Here I deployed the Archmage on the center-West (red circle indicates his area of influence) and BSB on the center-East (blue circle for his area of influence). Thanks to that units on the West have Ld9 and those on the East can re-roll their tests. I find re-rolls more important so I decided to position BSB where I was about to roll some terror tests as well.
If you are not fighting against fear-causing enemy but need to strengthen the resolve of units in particular area you can deploy your characters closer to each other so that their influence overlaps.
Example
In the game against Bretonnia I wanted to surround main unit of the enemy with as many regiments as possible. In order to do so I needed to destroy support units first. However, I had to take into account the fact that knights are faster than my infantry and I might need to receive the charge to do so. Hence I placed my Archmage (who had Folariath's Robes in this game) in aunit of LSG to act as an anvil. Thanks to that they had Ld9 while nearby BSB ensured I could re-roll any break tests (hopefully on steadfast). My opponent took the bait with his six knights and charged in. I managed to hold and then counter-attacked to destroy the enemy and then reform to face the main unit of my opponent (not shown here).
My characters are very fragile so positioning them is also important from the point of view of their safety. As long as they live they do not give away a significant amount of victory points to the enemy but also support troops longer. Usually placing them with Swordmasters, Lions or LSG is more than enough to prevent any early charges by fast enemy troops who would die easily if they attempted the charge. Of course you might want to consider changing the unit who at particular time protects the characters as Swordmasters and Lions in particular need to be in combat while at the same time it is something the characters should avoid at all costs. What can happen if it the character is killed in such situation is illustrated by the following example:
Example
In the game against Warriors of Chaos at CanCon 2012 I recklessly moved White Lions with BSB forward. My opponent charged in with his chariot. Despite quite significant amount of S6 attacks I failed to destroy it and my enemy killed BSB. I lost combat and failed a break test. What is more, in the following turn my units which were prepared to counter attack Chaos Knights panicked due to killed eagle and fled from their perfect positions. All this could have been avoided if BSB were alive. That mistake decided the outcome of the game. If I deployed BSB in a safer place the battle would have been much closer
In general there is no single way of deploying your characters as it depends on the enemy and other circumstances present during particular game with its scenario etc. But you need to know exactly what you want to accomplish with them and how to protect them so they can do their job.
*This paragraph was added thanks to feedback from GuessRange from wargamerau.com
Zitat von "Swordmaster of Hoeth"Alles anzeigen6. Movement
Some armies are designed to out-shoot the enemy. Some to out-magic it. MSU armies aim at gaining superiority in the movement phase. Before I start writing about my own observations in that matter I would like to draw your attention to some old articles by Machiara and Papa Elf (who basically adopted a lot of Machiara’s ideas and tried to implement them for High Elves armies in particular):
In one of them it is said that Movement Phase has really two purposes:
1. To create a situation when you can have uneven fights in your favor.
2. To prevent the enemy to do likewise.
Some of the ideas in the above mentioned articles are outdated due to the fact they were written for previous editions. For example, skirmishers no longer have ability to see in every direction that limits their area of influence to the front rank as every other unit.
However, there are new rules which I try to use with MSU army to my advantage:
- Random charge distance – new rules for determining charge distances mean that in theory the area of influence of your units are bigger since an infantry regiment can potentially have a charge distance of 17 inches while cavalry can attack targets at 20 inches away (with greater probability too, thanks to swift stride). It is not likely to accomplish such a fit but the enemy often has to take that into account and by threatening him with an attack you can prevent him from reaching better positions.
- Swift reform/other reforms – with musicians and high leadership you can be much faster. Instead of performing wide and cumbersome wheels you simply swift reform and move in the desired direction. Very good when you want to catch the opponent off guard and pretend you are attacking towards one part of the battlefield and then go elsewhere. Of course you have to be careful how you reform and that you do not create chaos among your own ranks but keeping the enemy guessing can be a good idea. And might force him to make mistakes too.
Another use of swift reform is to use it in order to threaten enemy units trying to maneuver around you or between your regiments. It can be tricky as you don’t want to chase faster units (or fliers) this way and simply turn your unit on the spot. But this is the option you have so you can try to use it.
Swift reform also helps regiments who defeated their enemies to quickly reinforce their companions. Reforming in general is very useful thing to do so look for opportunities and try to anticipate movements of units to choose the best option. At the same time limiting the options for the enemy to do so is very helpful. Attacking from two directions gives that advantage and if it is done from any other than front it can also mean a significant reduction in the attacks the foe can direct back at you.
Example
Here you can see that I managed to charge with Swordmasters and Lions against Stormvermin and defeat them in 1 turn. I used combat reform after that to be in a position to counter charge next turn when Spearelves held big clanrat unit in place.
Last but not least swift reform helps your shooters to change facing and keep shooting. Deadly against light troops trying to sneak around. Also useful when you try to position sea guard to create better multi charges but annoys the enemy as you are not only threaten them with unfavourable combats but can kill that one warrior too many that might be the difference between having and not having steadfast or kill that lonely character who thought he is safe.
Example
Vampire BSB on Hellsteed has just defeated light cavalry. He was in a relatively safe position but keen eyed elven archers spotted him. They swift-reformed to be sure they are in range and managed to get that lucky shot that finished cursed creature of the night.
- Fast cavalry – less straightforward to use but I really like it. Now and again you might find a narrow gap in enemy lines which is too narrow for other units but thanks to free reform you can get through and threaten vulnerable war machines. It is also very helpful to threaten the foe with flank/rear charges too. They might fail their Ld test due to close proximity of your unit and might not march, does not happen often but it is always good to force such a test.
Their feigned flight rule is also very handy, especially against frenzied regiments and can help you to draw them into a trap without sacrificing your own units to do so. In other cases the enemy might have to declare the charge against them first in order to redirect against another unit. First, they might fail to do so and then have to chase light horse. If not they might be still in a bad spot for a successful charge against another unit (i.e. too far to have good chance to make it) and still fail the charge. You can of course withdraw with second regiment too thus slowing down your enemy further. In any case there are a lot of opportunities to perform feigned flight and then come back to the fight, especially that you can do so by moving around enemy regiments and immediately position your light cavalry in a threatening place without losing a turn as it would be for other unit.
Example
One of the light cavalry units performed a feigned flight move forcing a failed charge and thus the gap was created between the Dwarven units. Reavers reformed and immediately moved into it to reform again behind enemy lines ready to attack their war machines. Another unit also exploited the gap between Dwarven unit and the tower.
- Always Strike First/Initiative order – it is not exactly the rule that helps you directly in the movement phase but thanks to that you can be more aggressive with your units and be more efficient in positioning them for the best charge option. The enemy often fears even 10 Lions or Swordmasters because they will strike before them and with their high output damage it is very risky to do so if you are not attacking with big regiment or well armoured warriors or both. Thanks to that you can march with one of your regiments boldly towards the enemy, stop and inch or two, thus preventing any sophisticated movement and force a difficult decision – charge first but still suffer greatly and risk counter attack or try to move back but with possible combined charge going his way next turn regardless.
Example
I moved my hard hitters towards the enemy but I positioned Spearelves and Swordmasters in such way that Daemonettes would struggle not to engage both units at the same time (and I always could flee from that charge). Since my enemy hesitated and didn’t charge first I could attack with 4 units against one. This example also shows how the advantage in the number of units available works to your advantage. You can outflank the enemy easier even with ranked infantry and since the opponent knows you can flee and still have units to charge he has a tough decision to make.
Apart from 8th edition rules that you can use in the movement phase to gain advantage and prevent the enemy in doing likewise there are things that are good for you:
- Multiple Small Units - This is also foundation of the whole concept. Multiple Units. Even though they are infantry in majority you can use them efficiently to overwhelm the enemy so that there is nowhere for it to hide and no matter how it turns or reforms, it will always be attacked from many directions. What is more, by setting up multiple charges you diminish the impact of the random charge range and even if some units do not get into the contact with the enemy there are enough of them to create favorable fight for you anyway.
Example
In the course of battle I managed to position several units close enough to attempt a multiple charge on an isolated regiment of enemy ranked infantry. I sacrificed an eagle to hold gors in place and then declared the charge with 6 units. Only one failed the charge roll and combined effort was enough to destroy 25 strong gor unit with 2 characters in a single turn.
- Space - MSU army needs space to be able to be as efficient as possible. It means that in the first turn of the game you might need to clear the field from enemy support units as they can divert your regiments, block movement and be generally annoying. This is where your shooting and cavalry can shine. Shooting can wound tougher targets such as chariots or some war beasts while light cavalry or skirmishers can be destroyed by it. Cavalry can intercept faster regiments which can harm your infantry (and you do want them to be at full strength before the combat starts). Heavy cavalry is also good at attacking enemy shooters and aid light horse in war machines hunting so that your infantry does not have to worry about presenting a flank to cannon crew of your enemy. Because you have many units at your disposal you can perform all these tasks at the same time. Another great advantage of the MSU army.
- Great Eagles- Great Eagles are well known for their usefulness and they deserve a separate entry. Fortunately there is a whole topic for you to read about tricks available to any HE player so I am not going to steal the topic from the rightful owner and instead give full credit to Collinisimo and other contributors by linking this topic: Link
- Threat Zones* - I believe it was in Machiara's article I read about it for the first time in the context of warhammer game and I learned about the concept from chess (surprise, surprise!). All your regiments have that front arc area zone where they can either shoot or charge and any enemy entering it risks being attacked. This is a very useful thing as you can create zones during movement phase where the enemy will be reluctant to go into. They might fear your powerful charge and will slow down their advance. Or maybe their units are vulnerable to shooting and can be thinned down or even panicked and because of that his formation will not spread as much as he would like to thus preventing him from using movement to his full advantage. It might force him to make difficult decisions as he would like to shoot/cast a spell at your regiment but it might require entering the threat zone from your elites ready to attack next turn. So he has to choose between risking his shooters/spell casters and not using them in the role they are the best.
Example
In this game of two MSU armies we tried to out-deploy and outmaneuver each other. I find Flamers quite dangerous for my small units but I have a good counter for that threat in the form of Dragon Princes. My opponent knew that and tried to lure my cavalry to the flank and take them away from the center of the battlefield. I achieved my goal which was preventing Flamers from shooting without any penalties (their efficiency was reduced and their target choice limited) and I also used a small mistake my opponent made by placing his Fiend a little too close when I could risk long charge. I made it but then could not break through in order to overrun into flamers but in the end I managed to destroy the Fiend and the Crusher so it was not lost opportunity either.
It is also worth remembering that a perceived threat is as dangerous as a real one. It is another concept borrowed from chess. Once the unit is committed it cannot be elsewhere. Of course ultimate goal is to commit the regiment but at the same time when you maneuver to gain the best advantage possible you can keep the enemy guessing. Also, if you try to position your units in the way that they threat many enemy regiments at the same time you can confuse the opponent as to where your attack is rally aiming. The best for that are flying units so you might consider adding a flying heroes to your army for the very purpose of that option.
* paragraph added thanks to feedback from SmithF
Zitat von "Swordmaster of Hoeth"Alles anzeigen7. Additional Examples
There are a few more examples of interesting situations which occurred in my games I would like to share with you. I hope I will be able to update that part with more games coming.
7.1. Abomination Hunt
Skaven Abomination is powerful monster and with its special attacks it can easily eat one small regiment per turn. It was crucial for me then to come up with an idea of how to hunt it down. It is very fast with its 3d6 random movement and you cannot flee from it. It has "regeneration" special rule so it was very important to attack it with White Lions who have Banner of Eternal Flame. If I could do so from the flank then even better. Here is what I managed to achieve:
Due to its Random Movement Abomination moved ahead of main Skaven battle line. I positioned an Eagle exactly 1 inch in front of it so that it has no other option but to charge. I moved White Lions to be 6.1 right behind the eagle so that when Abomination overruns it does not go too far for another Lion regiment to charge it from the flank. As you can see my opponent sees the danger and tries to shoot at Lions but 5 of them remains and they charge in. They do not kill the Abomination in that turn yet (I managed to finish it in subsequent round of combat) but I stopped it already.
7.2. Dealing with Frenzied Ranked units
Ranked units with frenzy can be very dangerous because they produce a lot of attacks and even if they lose combat they may still be steadfast and difficult to defeat quickly. This is one way of dealing with them:
I positioned an Eagle in front of the Khorne Warriors regiment. I also moved 3 other units (task force) to positions and my opponent had to choose. Either to attack or be attacked. He chose to kill the eagle and had to overrun. As he entered the river he immediately lost steadfast rule and his ranks did not count to the combat resolution. Then I charged with my 3 heavy hitters from 3 sides and managed to inflict enough wounds to kill the entire regiment. However, the same would work against horde of khorne marauders for example, who would lose badly and unless they were lucky to get insane courage they would be broken easily
7.3. Multiple Charge
There are many examples of multiple charges but I chose this one because ... it didn't happen. I missed that opportunity and if I were not lucky to hold with Spearelves against Clanrats with Screaming Bell I would have lost that game badly.
In the middle of the game sometimes it is hard to spot great opportunities. In this situation I saw that I am in a good position to charge Stromvermin with Swordmasters from the front and Lions from the flank. I also sacrificed Archers to slow down Clanrats with Screaming Bell. To our surprise Archers survived the charge and even managed to hold on Insane Courage! But then I was so overwhelmed with joy that I didn't spot another opportunity.
I should have charged with Swordmasters and Spearelves to the flank of that big regiment. It would pin it down again and although it is unbreakable I would be able to start killing clanrats earlier. Also, my two other regiments who defeated Stormvermin would be able to help my following turn and it would be possible to get the bell as well while in the game I didn't have enough time to finish it. What is more important, however, I would not risk Spearelves with the Archmage as I did in the game.
7.4. Defending characters against powerful fliers
Even with so many regiments it might happen that the characters have no safe place to hide. It is in particular difficult against powerful fliers such as Bloodthirster or Lord on Dragon. Such beasts don't even have to attack your character, they will simply destroy the unit so that they can catch the survivors in hot pursuit.
Another problem is that you cannot really block such powerful enemy with your units as they can simply fly over. If you place the character behind the regiment the foe will simply overrun into your mage or bsb. Another unit might be handy but then we are talking about the situation when you might run out of the units to sacrifice. Besides 2 regiments equal the cost of BSB with a bonus VP for battle standard and their cost is close to what enemy would get for an archmage too. So it is not really that great exchange.
However, I think I managed to design the formation in which you can save the life of your characters at the cost of one unit, at least for a turn or two. Which means that it might be long enough for them to live until the end of the game.
In the game against Daemons of Chaos I faced a big challenge (literally!) in the form of Bloodthirster. I managed to elude his attention for some time and it happened that I needed just one more turn to survive with my characters. As you can see on the diagram I positioned my 2 units at an angle with only a small gap in front. My characters were between the units, one inch away from each regiment and presenting their front to the Bloodthirster. In that situation Bloodthirster could not land between them to attack my characters. He could only charge a unit. As he had to maximize the number of models in contact it also meant he would not be able to pursue or overrun into my archmage either. Another important factor here is that I didn't have any champions in these units so I could not challenge and by sacrificing one be able to remain steadfast one turn longer. It did help, however, to be able to cast Courage of Aenarion to make the regiments stubborn as the one attacked suffered too many casualties to remain steadfast. Thanks to this formation my characters survived the game and when we calculated the points it was a draw!
8. Summary
As I said at the beginning I wrote this rather long post to collect my observations on High Elves MSU. It is possible that with growing experience I will update it, especially with some more interesting examples. I would also appreciate any feedback on any part. Do you think I should elaborate on some particular subject? Maybe I missed something?
I also trust it was interesting reading despite the length. I simply decided to write everything I consider worth mentioning even if it seems obvious.
Acknowledgements
If these observations are any good (and I believe some of them may be useful :)) then it is thanks to:
Wardancer aka Eastern Barbarian - who convinced me that it is a very good idea to try out MSU approach when I was failing badly with my cavalry prince and started to doubt if I can play Warhammer at all. He patiently played game after game with variety of armies to help me to prepare to the first tournament at which I played with this army. Thanks bro!
SmithF - for showing the MSU armies can be fun to play with in 8th edition too!
Milliardo - for support and understanding the need to talk about tactics more than army list building
Brewmaster_D - for being stubborn and forcing me to eat my keyboard in order to defend my own way but having a great time discussing magic lores and core selections.
And all the members from Ulthuan and Warhammer.org who: disagreed with me on many matters thus helping me to try and explain my point of view better (I know I failed often in that regard); popped by and said they like the reports and the army style - that really kept me going!; all the readers - I will do my best to provide more and better quality reports so that HE MSU saga continues.
Thanks for reading!
In den guten alten WD`s (die ersten 30) waren die Berichte auch so cool und lehrreich...
Ich kauf inzwischen nur sehr selten WDs, aber ich muss gestehe dass ich letzten als ich beim Hochelfen Release mir einen gekauft habe doch ziemlich entsetzt war, wie absolut unaussagekräftig und unnachvollziehbar der Schlachtbericht dort war. Daran erkennt man leider doch sehr, dass wir inzwischen bei dem Spiel der "phastastischen Schlachten" angekommen sind. 
Leider haben wir hier auf dem Board viel zu selten Schlachtberichte und wenn sich doch mal einer die Mühe macht einen ausführlichen Bericht zu schreiben, geht er leider viel zu oft kaum kommentiert unter weil unsere Mitglieder es gar nicht gewohnt sind ihre Spielerfahrungen auf diese Weise zu teile und zu diskutieren.
Ich spiele meine Skaven nach dem römischen Kohortensystem. Dabei sind die Regis meist 5*5 gross. Die starken Einheiten bilden den hinteren Riegel. Vorne die Opfer (Berlinerisch für Skavensklaven *g). So kann ich lokale Überzahlen durch Umgehung, Flankierung und Einkesselung erreichen.
Bei mir gehts genauso oft schief, wie bei dem Autor der tollen Berichte. 2-3 kleine Fehler bei der Aufstellung und man baut seiner Armee eine Sollbruchstelle ein.
Also ja, es geht auch mit anderen Armeen!
Ich würd mich sehr freuen, wenn du uns mal an einigen deiner Schlachten teilnehmen lassen würdest! Fände es sehr spannend von MSU-Skaven zu lesen!
@ tiny...kannst du der übersichthalber mal alles spoilern? so kann man nach und nach alles lesen ohne ewig scrollen zu müssen...
Mach ich!
Gib mir nur etwas Zeit... Mit dem iPad ist das etwas mühsam 
Besser so?
Die Skaven würden mich auch interessieren. Wären tatsächlich das letzte Volk, mit dem ich MSU spielen würde ...
Ich habe gerade eine PM auf Ulthuan.net bekommen
Zitat von "Swordmaster of Hoeth"Alles anzeigenHi Tiny,
I have followed the link in your signature and that led me to the forum you have mentioned before. I am really glad and honored that you found my reports worthy reposting there. Unfortunately my German is very bad so I cannot contribute directly to the unfolding discussion (and needed Google translator on many occasions too! :oops: ). However, I would love to add to it one way or another so if there is particular question raised, let me know. I would try to answer that and who knows, I might also have an example to back it up.
I have noticed the MSU concept is tried by many players with different armies. I can direct you to army book specific topics, if somebody is interested. The main point is that one way or another, any army can incorporate MSU concept.
In the meantime here is the link to a very interesting topic: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=94537
SmithF is the guy who re-introduced MSU to 8th edition and he was my inspiration and great help when I started the journey. You will have battle reports there with different armies using MSU style so that people can see that it can work for other armies too.
I am just a little ashamed that the last tournament (ANUWTF) was not the best performance of mine. CanCon 2013 was much better in that regard
Cheers!
SM
Wenn Ihr also Fragen an Schwertmeister habt, könnt ihr sie hier gerne stellen. Er meint zwar seine Deutschkennisse seien nicht ganz so sicher, aber zur Not spiele ich den Proxy und übertrag eure Fragen für Ulthuan.net ins englische
Wow sehr geil das ganze hier, ich bevorzuge selber ein ähnliches Konzept nur nicht ganz so radikal. Ich kann es jedem empfehlen, es macht extrem viel spaß!
Man muss es öfter spielen, denn man kann in der bewegungsphase so viele fehler machen, aber nach kurzer zeit sollte man sich zurecht finden.
Es wäre wünschenswert, wenn die leute die es ausprobieren hier mal ein paar hilfestellungen geben.
Meine erfahrungen gebe ich auch gleich mal preis:
Hauptsächlich spiele ich gegen einen Kumpel der eine sehr wildorklastige armee spielt. Unsere hausregeln sind:
keine einheit darf über 350pkt kosten (ohne Standarte), max 4 würfel für einen spruch/bannen, keine named chars, kategoriesystem nach combat 8.0. und meistens 2000 oder 2500 pkt (je nach zeit die zur verfügung steht)
Meine listen gehen häufig in folgende richtung:
- erzer lvl 4, entweder komplett ohne alles oder wenn ich gerne mehr sicheren support haben will, dann mit buch von hoeth:
Der erzer steht entweder alleine und dann in der nähe einer einheit (schwächerer achtung sir) oder falls die gefahr zu hoch ist für ihn, dann in eine kleine schützneinheit
- Lehrmeister/ gesalbter: Wirklich interessante option, allerdings viel zu teuer und daher keine berechtigung. Die boni von den beiden helfen nicht wirklich, weil die einheiten zu klein sind oder man auf einen +4 bannen verzichten muss.
- AST, der ist bei mir zuletzt immer auf pferd geblieben und dann in eine kleine einheit silberheleme um auf der flanke für sicherheit zu sorgen. Ich werde aber mal probieren den auf nen adler zu setzten und auch ohne alles zu spielen (keine mag. items). 18" für MW ist dann schon ziemlich geil
- kern: was immer gesetzt ist, sind 10 bogenschützen, ein segen um bereich auf dem feld zu säubern! Ansonsten empfinde ich die seegarde mit als gewinner des neuen armeebuchs durch 3 reihen schießen. silberhelme und grenzreiter füllen den rest, wobei schilde und bogen(ohne speer) meiner meinung nach das sinnvollste ist.
- elite: Hier entdecke ich die phönixgarde ganz neu für mich, durch 15 modelle erhält man nicht wie vorher nur 11 atttacken sondern nun 16! was ein grandioser zuwachs bei gleichen punkten zu vorher und ohne nachteile! Bei den WL bin ich mir noch nicht ganz so sicher wie gut ich sie finden soll, liegt halt aber auch daran, dass mein gegner selten stark auf beschuss geht und sich so eher schwertmeister lohnen. Bei denen bin ich mir immer noch nicht sicher wie genau sie am besten daher kommen, früher habe ich sie immer 7*2 gespielt, werde mal einfache 10er,5er und 15er. trupps ausprobieren (5er breite jedes mal).
Für drachenprinzen hatte ich bisher mit dem neuen armeebuch noch keine verwendung, allerdings könnte sich das noch ändern, im alten AB habe ich sie gerne als 5er oder 6er trupp gespielt
Sehr gut finde ich momentan übrigens die Schwestern, sind in jeder meiner listen mit 10 Modellen vertreten und sorgen mit S4, flammenattacken, (Rüstungsbrechend gegen Orks) und BF5 für maßloses entsetzen bei meinem gegner. Im gegensatz zur speerschleuder sind sie schön beweglich und verhindern somit das typische "reh auf der straße Szenario". Natürlich darf ein Frost Phönix nicht fehlen, absolut top das ding! Ohne den gehe ich einfach nicht mehr aus dem haus 
Die einzige einheit von der ich sehr selten Gebrauch gemacht habe, aber von der ich ausgehe das man sie benutzten muss wenn man MSU spielt ist der Löwenstreitwagen, ich denke mit zwei dieser dinger kann man sehr gut arbeiten.
So das wars jetzt erstmal für mich, hoffe ihr könnt ein bisschen was damit anfangen !
mfg JoDokus
Edit: natürlich habe ich die adler vergessen, aber die sind sowas von gesetzt... dazu brauch man eigentlich nichts sagen xD
Finde die ganze Geschichte hier sehr interessant.
Nur leider kann man das mit Brets vollkommen vergessen, dafür sind die viel zu teuer, als das man so viele Einheiten zusammenbekommt.
Eventuell werde ich das mit DE mal probieren, ich spiele manchmal schon mit 2 Hexenriegeln a 10.
Dazu noch 2 x 10er Korsaren, 2 x 5er Reiter und ein größerer Trupp Speere. Das sollten nicht zu viele Punkte sein, und sind bis auf die Hexen alles Kern. Muss also noch 2 mal die Garde ran. Wobei mir eigentlich die Auswahl für den großen Punch mit kleinen Truppen fehlt. Eventuell dann mit Echsenrittern?
Aber ernsthaft, den Thread find ich klasse.
Zitat von "Swordmaster of Hoeth"Alles anzeigenGreetings!
A friend of mine asked me for a game as he had a very long break and has never played with 8th edition rules before. I was very happy to bring him back to the light and we set up a game in the local store. My friend brought his Wood Elves. I was very intrigued because somehow I didn't have many opportunities to play against Asrai. He brought a nice army with a little bit of everything, painted in the autumn colors. Which looked very nice on the battlefield indeed!
Wood Elves - Army List
Spellweaver, level 4, Ranu's Heartstone - Lore of Beasts
BSB, Hail of Doom Arrow, Asyendi's Bane
Branchwraith, level 1, A Cluster of Radiants - Lore of Athel Loren
Wardancer Noble, Blades of Loec
14 Glade Guards
10 Glade Guards
10 Glade Guards
8 Dryads
8 Dryads
8 Dryads
5 Glade Riders
3 Treekin
8 Wardancers
Treeman
6 Waywatchers
Great Eagle
After changes to the High Elves army book a match up against Wood Elves became even more interesting. They are still far better archers and I am jealous about their shoot-after-move rule as well as S4 at short range. In a shooting contest I was definitely at a disadvantage.
The combat specialists are also quite interesting. Both Dryads and Wardancers have initiative 6 meaning my infantry elites would strike after them. What is more, the fact Dryads cause fear can mean big trouble if I fail that test. Fortunately Dragon Princes could deal with these regiments quite well. Also, "lowly" sea guard or archers might be even better tool for the job thanks to their ASF rule. I would not get re-rolls but Asrai troops are fragile too. In particular if I could get Enchanted Blades on them too.
I have never played against Treeman or Treekin so I was looking forward to meeting them on the battle field. The number of units in the WE army was also high enough to limit my usual advantage in the deployment phase.
Outcasts - Army List
Archmage, level 4, Earthing Rod, Golden Crown - Lore of Metal - 255
Battle Standard Bearer, Dragon Armor, Halberd, Charmed Shield, Potion of Strength, Reaver Bow - 157
15 Archers, Light Armor, Full Command - 195
15 LSG, Full Command - 210
2 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spear, Bow - 2 x 105
2 x 5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 2 x 155
2 x 12 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 2 x 176
10 White Lions, Muscian, Banner of Eternal Flame - 160
10 White Lions, Muscian, Gleaming Pennant - 155
6 Shadow Warriors - 85
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
2 x Great Eagle - 2 x 50
2 x 5 Sisters of Avelorn - 2 x 70
I intended to shoot down enemy archers if possible. I also wanted to use flaming attacks against the treemen or treekin. With their relatively high armor save metal magic spells can actually deal damage too. As I have mentioned before, Dragon Princes and Militia can be very good against enemy units. However, Swordmasters with their high WS and high number of attacks should be dangerous too. White Lions need more support here but are very useful against big guys if not fighting alone.
Deployment
Deployment just before the vanguard moves
Both, WE general and BSB, joined big unit of glade guards. Wardancer noble led his troupe to the battle while Branchwraith joined the Western group of dryads.
Archie ordered his Swordmasters to stay in the rear as reinforcements but Bob the BSB was leading from the front.
Respective wizards got following spells:
Spellweaver - Wyssan's Wildform, The Amber Spear, The Curse of Anraheir, The Savage Beasts of Horrors
Branchwraith - Treesinging
Archie - Searing Doom, Enchanted Blades of Aiban, Gehenna's Golden Hounds, Transmutation of Lead
Wood Elves won the roll off and moved as first.
Wood Elves - Turn 1
Entire Wood Elves army moves forward either to close distance to the enemy or to get into shooting range. High Elves archers become the main target and they loose exactly third of their numbers but the survivors hold their ground.
Outcasts - Turn 1
High Elves move forward to meet their savage kinsmen
And reply with ranged attacks in kind
High Elves move on the flanks in their favorite pincer maneuver. On the East Dragon Princes force Glade Riders and Waywatchers to retreat and abandon their positions. The center holds still to shoot. But before that Archibald the Archmage has a field day when he manages to pass through Spellweavers defenses and his powerful spell topples down mighty treeman. Nearby eagle is also quickly plucked from the sky by High Elves sharp shooters. Even Wood Elves archers are attacked and suffer casualties in that shooting contest.
Wood Elves - Turn 2
And their shooters are very efficient too
Wood Elves, a little more reluctant due to heavy barrage that claimed their treemen, keep moving forward. On the West, glade guards shoot down entire unit of Reavers all by themselves, thus forbidding the enemy to access their rear.
The rest of the glade guards continued shooting and High Elves archers were again significantly reduced in numbers.
Outcasts - Turn 2
Powerful flank charges encircle the enemy
Outcasts attacked without hesitation. On the West White Lions and Swordmasters charged Dryads who where quickly overwhelmed. Swordmasters pursued surviving forest spirits while White Lions reformed to protect their companions. On the East both heavy cavalry charged another group of Dryads and destroyed them too. One of the regiments pursued into nearby glade guards to stop them from shooting.
In the meantime eagles swooped down to block the enemy units in the center while the bow armed troops continued shooting contest. This time only 5 glade guards remained to protect their general and BSB. They decided it is time to retreat and save their leaders.
Wood Elves - Turn 3
This picture is actually the beginning of HE Turn 3
Wood Elves general fails to rally!
Wood Elves try to break though the center before the encirclement is completed. Wardancers fail to catch the great eagle and move further away from flanking Swordmasters. Dryads attack the great eagle too but this one holds and refuses to break either. Finally, Treekin charges White Lions. Their woodsmen skills were not good enough, however, and they lost combat and had to retreat only to be caught by vengeful spirits.
Glade Guards fight the best they can and manage to hold down Dragon Princes.
Outcasts - Turn 3
High Elves surround their enemy
White Lions spotted fleeing glade guards with the leaders of the enemy army and charge them. Wood Elves escape but do not return.
On the East, Ellyrian Reaver charge the brave Glade Guards and break them. Both cavalry units pursue into nearby waywatchers.
Unfortunately, Archmage draws too much energy and only the magical rod he carries lets him escape the vortex that would inevitably suck him into the realm of chaos. However, he still suffered due to the magical feedback and his powers were almost completely drained for the reminder of the game.
Wood Elves - Turn 4
Wood Elves could not reach the enemy
The last chance for the attack and break through
Wardancers and dryads tried to reach High Elves archers but could not complete the charge. Even Glade Guards tried to help out but their attack back fired when Reavers killed a few of them before they could strike their enemy. Waywatchers were thus broken and run down by High Elves.
Outcasts - Turn 4
Only 3 units from Wood Elves army are left
Wardancers are attacked from 3 sides. Sea Guard champion challenges and Wardancer Noble cuts him down. But his companions cannot dodge multitude of spears and lances. He is the only survivor and he quickly shares the tragic fate of his troupe.
Dryads are in turn almost decimated by arrows and bolts. Only 3 units from Wood Elves army are left at this stage.
Wood Elves - Turn 5
Outcasts - Turn 5
Wood Elves - Turn 6
Outcasts - Turn 6
High Elves try to capture the last enemy units
Treekin finally breaks from combat but very tired Dragon Prince just cannot catch them. In a quite difficult position some of the High Elves shooters aim at the glade guard but there are still 2 survivors after the salvo and they refuse to flee.
With that last act High Elves let the remnants of the enemy withdraw as they won anyway.
After-battle thoughts
tbc
Quelle:http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=48087
Zitat von "Swordmaster of Hoeth"Alles anzeigenGreetings!
A new battle report for you!
Outcasts vs. Monsters of Chaos
With the recent release of Warrior of Chaos army book a lot of players were eager to test their new ideas and check new options available for them. Wardancer aka Eastern Barbarian also wanted to do so and I was more than happy to line up a thin blue line of High Elven warriors to test his new army.
Always unorthodox with his approach and great Swedish Comp fan, he came up with an idea of a Monster of Chaos army. I don't remember all the details (hopefully Wardancer will help me out later on) but that was his 2500 list:
Monsters of Chaos - Army List
Daemon Prince, Level 4, Chaos Armor, Enchanted Shield, Soul Feeder, Chaos Familiar (?) - Lore of Nurgle
BSB on Juggernout
Throgg
3 x Hounds of Chaos
2 x 6 Trolls
3 Trolls
2 x 3 Dragon Ogres
Chaos Giant
Chimera
Very fast, very durable army. Even if you have flaming attacks it is probably on a single regiment and with so many trolls out there it is hard to be everywhere. What is more, a single unit of 10 Lions is bound to take casualties anyway.
I was in particular concerned with Daemon Prince. I decided I will focus on the rest of the army and try not to give him too many opportunities to attack and pursuit into fresh target. However, I have found out that it didn't have dragon helm nor dragonbane gem so I also wanted to try and inflict some damage with metal magic.
In general that army is well protected from my shooting but a few units, such as Giant or Dragon Ogres might suffer from focused fire. The problem was it is very well known so I didn't expect them to be that exposed.
Chimera and BSB on Juggernaut were threats in themselves and I had to treat them as units. They were also a good target for metal magic spells as well as eagle claw so I wanted to use that opportunity to weaken them before the combat.
The main challenge was that I actually had too many threats to deal with and not much time to maneuver as this army is incredibly fast. The presence of Throgg also meant Trolls would behave and that was solid battle line as they are also immune to psychology.
Deployment
Deployment of the armies after vanguard moves
I really should expect a refused flank deployment from my opponents. It was shown before that one way to defeat my own force is to weight heavily on one flank and charge swiftly to overwhelm my forces and deny me the chance to re-group and support from the units on the other flank. It is definitely time to design some counter measures!
I was very unhappy with my own deployment. I immediately saw the danger of being overwhelmed on the Eastern flank and I had no room to maneuver there either. As a quick counter I decided to pull back to make the chances of second turn charges smaller. But I was doubtful if that were enough.
To my horror I have noticed that the file I prepared with the chat we had on UB is incomplete and I have no idea what spells Daemon Prince got, apart from Rancid Visitations.
The Archmage had: Searing Doom, Enchanted Blades, Glittering Robe and Golden Hounds
Not surprisingly I lost the roll for the first turn and I watched as Monsters moved towards my lines at a double.
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 1
The army of Monsters didn't wait long for the order to run towards the elven lines. Their daemonic general didn't want to keep them in check for too long before their enthusiasm would force them to attack each other. At the moment they were focused on the enemy and deep snow was not an obstacle for them at all.
Elves observed the horde of monsters with stoicism, even when their scouting squadron of light cavalry was targeted by evil spell and only a single survivor remained to keep enemy movements in check. (Edit: I think DP gained a wound and toughness due to lore attribute here)
Outcasts - Turn 1
Western forces rush to envelope the enemy
Elven units on the West moved fast to encircle the enemy while Eastern flank pulled back to increased the distance from the enemy. Thus giving more time for their companions to join the battle.
Shooting focused on chaos hounds, to clear the enemy fast units, able to interfere with maneuvers of the elven army.
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 2
Monsters press forward!
Monstrous army didn't slow down and only single group of trolls and a giant were ordered to guard the rear of advancing horde. It was clear Western elven units will be too late to aid the Eastern flank.
Outcasts - Turn 2
Attack is the best form of defense. Or is it?
Dragon Princes and Sea guard charged as one against trolls. Lances and spears hit home but infamous abilities to regenerate wounds by trolls in a blink of an eye prevailed and elves lost combat badly. The attackers were pushed back and trolls pursued disorganized elves.
Western units doubled their efforts to be ready at least to counter attack and avenge fallen comrades. Archmage was the first to bring some pain to the enemy forces. His focus was undisturbed by the daemon prince and powerful spell was cast. Daemonic general howled with rage and only thanks to his master protection he survived that barrage (Edit: I inflicted 4 wounds with Searing Doom but DP was still alive thanks to the extra wound from previous magic phase).
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 3
Collapse of the Eastern Front
Monsters of Chaos finally attacked too. Reavers and Archers were forced to withdraw as their futile resistance would help the enemy to keep up the momentum. Another archer unit was charged by trolls led by throgg himself and were destroyed. Thus entire Eastern flank of the elven army ceased to exist.
Outcasts - Turn 3
Elves do not give up!
Despite the heavy blow and the loss of several regiments at once, High Elves do not give up. Their heavy hitters are all intact and even more eager to enact vengeance. But they are not reckless and approach with a newly formulated plan.
The counter attack was to come from the South, were the enemy was the weakest. Dragon Princes and White Lions prepared a trap for a giant and eagles swooped down to cause confusion. Swordmasters with the Archmage entered the central building for better battle field control and the rest of the units re-grouped the form the new line on the North-South axis.
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 4
Chaos monsters keep attacking
BSB of the monstrous army decided it is time for him to earn some glory and charged sea guard. Elves decided to hold but when it was clear daemonic prince is about to charge they started to have some doubts (Edit: I think they actually faced South so a little mistake on the diagram, sorry!). But then, Throgg also wanted to taste some delicate elven flesh and recklessly charged on his own. This time Elves knew they stand no chance and retreated. That left the leaders of the monstrous army dangerously exposed.
On the South giant stormed White Lions who wounded it badly but didn't kill it and suffered many casualties. They stubbornly held, knowing cavalry will come to their aid any second.
Outcasts - Turn 4
Elves counter attack
Dragon Princes spurred their horses and charged the wounded giant before it had a chance to swing again and killed it outright.
White Lions led by BSB charged lone Throgg and even troll king was hapless against angry Chracian hunters whose axes blazed with magical fire.
Finally the Archmage repeated his fit and this time Daemon Prince was banished from the existence.
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 5
Leaderless beasts try to attack again
The only leader of the chaotic army manages to order a few of the groups to keep attacking. Chimera aids trolls but White Lions prevail and repel their attackers. Nearby second group of trolls are totally confused without their king and even the flight of their brethren does not impress them.
Dragon Ogres smell an easy victory and attack great eagle but noble bird of pray manages to avoid heavy blows. Dragon Ogres are stopped, at least for a while.
Outcasts - Turn 5
Swordmasters join the fight
Seeing the great eagle in trouble, Swordmasters charge the flank of Dragon Ogres. They flee and that opens the path to aid the great eagle. Swordmasters kill one of the Dragon Ogres but it is not yet enough to push them back and bloody melee continues.
Proud Dragon Princes charge seemingly vulnerable trolls alone and pay for their arrogance the ultimate price.
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 6
BSB of the chaotic army tries to break through
BSB, seeing as the army is in disarray tries to break through fighting. But Swordmasters fight well and they stop their enemy.
Chimera and Trolls fail to rally due to lack of any meaningful character and his inspiring presence. Another group of trolls remains confused despite the enemy very close.
Only Dragon Ogres are disciplined enough to rally.
Outcasts - Turn 6
Swordmastes finish the enemy
Elven BSB chases trolls and chimera off the battle field. Second unit of Swordmasters charges exposed flank of the enemy bsb and kill him without mercy. Even the dragon ogre finally dies in combat. Unfortunately the charge does not help to save companions from the first regiment.
By a miracle, high elves manage to repel the army of monsters but the price in blood was very high!
After-battle thoughts
After the charge in turn 3 and a collapse of entire flank I thought I am done. I only hoped that my archmage can hunt down daemon prince. The fact I kept Swordmasters, White Lions and single unit of heavy cavalry intact gave me chances to hit back but I was sure I have already lost the game.
The charge with Throgg was all that turned the tables. I think it was totally unnecessary but sometimes players tend to get bloodthirsty and I think that is what happened.
After losing DP and Throgg there was no one to lead the army and not surprisingly trolls started to fail their stupidity tests. That helped a lot as White Lions could not handle another unit on their own. It was actually quite lucky they survived the counter attack by Chimera.
Which is a shame as I think wardancer played a better game until that mistake with Throgg. He had a far better deployment, used his army well and limited the strength of mine. On the other hand I deployed poorly and lost many units due to that. Fortunately I didn't lose any of the heavy hitters so I had some power to hit back.
Thanks for reading!
Zitat von "Swordmaster of Hoeth"Alles anzeigenIn that case let's see what really happened
Wardancer showed many times that he is all for unorthodox armies but you would be surprised to think that they lack the punch. Just the contrary! For this game I had only one request. To meet 9.5 minimum score for Swedish Comp as it is used in the tournament I would like to attend next month.
The theme of Monsters of Chaos was present in this topic before. Wardancer built his army on the foundations of the previous one but with some significant changes.
Monsters of Chaos - Army List
Galrauch - Lore of Tzeentch
Throgg
BSB on Daemonic Steed (1+ armor, 2++ versus flaming attacks)
3 x 5 Chaos Hounds
2 x 7 Trolls
2 x 3 Dragon Ogres, GW, Champion
Shagoth
Nurgle Giant
Fast and quite tough army, if you ask me. Level 4 Tzeentch is never good news but on top of that it is also a dragon. Throgg is a great addition, making all the monsters so much more reliable. Tank BSB immune to fire is also a tough nut to crack.
As I have mentioned the army is fast so I cannot count delay tactics too much. However, I was very interested in seeing how Sisters of Avelorn are going to help in thinning down the trolls. The problem is that there are so many important targets either for shooting or for magic that it is really hard decision what should be the priority. The good thin was, that there will be always something to point at.
I haven't changed my army list but here it is for easy reminder:
Outcasts - Army List
Archmage, level 4, Earthing Rod, Golden Crown - Lore of Metal - 255
Battle Standard Bearer, Dragon Armor, Halberd, Charmed Shield, Potion of Strength, Reaver Bow - 157
15 Archers, Light Armor, Full Command - 195
15 LSG, Full Command - 210
2 x 5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spear, Bow - 2 x 105
2 x 5 Dragon Princes, Musician - 2 x 155
2 x 12 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 2 x 176
10 White Lions, Muscian, Banner of Eternal Flame - 160
10 White Lions, Muscian, Gleaming Pennant - 155
6 Shadow Warriors - 85
Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower - 70
2 x Great Eagle - 2 x 50
2 x 5 Sisters of Avelorn - 2 x 70
As I have mentioned before I was very curious about shooting phase with added help of Sisters. I expected to see some dead trolls
I was up for a challenge in that game but I believed I had a chance to put up a decent fight. I could still outflank it as I was sure wardancer would keep them tight to benefit from BSB and Throggs presence. Some shooting should hopefully make a gap or two in the line that could have been exploited.
Deployment
Deployment of the armies after vanguard moves
The positioning of Monstrous characters is clear. Archibald the Archmage was with his Swordmaster bodyguards. Bob joined Sea Guard. White Lions with flaming attacks were on the right flank.
Unfortunately, I could not save the chat from the game so that I could check the spells wizards got. I only remember that Galrauch had Infernal Gateway and some kind of Missile or Direct Damage Spell.
Archie got: Searing Doom, Enchanted Blades, Glittering Robe and Golden Hounds
Wardancer won the roll off and his beastie boyz moved forward full speed!
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 1
Galrauch goes for a powerful start!
Whole monstrous army moved as one towards a tiny line of elven warriors. Monsters of Chaos were like a steamroller, crushing all life before them. Then twisted and corrupted dragon Galrauch called for aid of his master and even the mighty archmage was unable to stop the magical onslaught.
First some kind of twisted magic missile engulfed White Lions. Some of them died instantaneously but some had to suffer horrible mutations before they gave their last breath. Infernal gateway opened in front of the Swordmasters and swallowed almost entire unit. Few survivors shared the fate of mutated White Lions and legendary warriors of Hoeth were no more!
Outcasts - Turn 1
The BSB ordered the fire base of the elven army to move back a little and then gave the signal to the nearby Sisters. They all aimed at trolls led by their monstrous king. Shortly after the first flaming arrows hit the beasts and the magical fire engulfed the entire group of them, the rest of the army let loose. Two brutes fell down immediately and another one was visibly wounded.
On the East light cavalry sneaked in between the enemy units and started harassing the foe.
On the West the Archmage led his Swordmasters to the nearby building for a better view. It was not time for subtleties and the Archmage focused all his power into a single spell. Galrauch was unable to stop it (although he tried!) and suffered badly, barely holding on to the last thread of his existence on this mortal plane. Then the Archmage spotted the heavy cavalry picking up momentum ...
Archie, very pleased with himself because of the nice show off with magic (if only that silly dragon died already!) leaned through the window. He saw proud Sons of Caledor picking up the speed and leveling their lances to charge something big in the woods. They stormed in, for a moment disappearing from sight.
Then a mighty roar of anger was heard and as quickly Caledorians stormed in as quickly they were now galloping back. Just behind them an ugly giant (even for their own standards) was chasing them. In one hand he held huge mace, while with the other kept his oversized pants from dropping down his knees or maybe even ankles!
What in the first impression looked like a tail, a frequent mutation among spawn of chaos, happened to be a caledorian lance. "Ah, I see now" - thought Archie - "all this talking about martial prowess, honor and respect for foe but in their arrogance the Caledorians were kind to forget about manners" Even Archie knew that it is not good idea to attack an enemy like a giant when it was looking for a quiet place to reply to the nature call. Now wonder he was so angry now. Well, maybe that will teach them something.
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 2
Giant continued his charge and attacked the crew of the eagle claw. Once again it roared at his foes but this time elves were not impressed. The rest of the chaos army reshuffled and slowed down. It seemed they were reluctant to advance if they could not do so all together.
Only badly wounded Galrauch decided on the last gamble. He flew close to the house and yet again powerful Infernal Gateway swallowed almost entire unit of Swordmasters. Some of them mutated to death too. Then one of the heads breathed its magical fire into the ruin of the building but claimed only one warrior. Second head didn't join due to unknown reasons and the archmage and bladelord survived.
Outcasts - Turn 2
The archmage and his last guardian moved out of the house. Having miraculously survived the attack of the dragon the archmage didn't wait and cast his own powerful magic again.This time weak and wounded dragon died for good.
Ellyrian Reavers continued their harassment and the flank of the enemy simply stopped. In the center, although eagle claw was locked in combat (and a flank charge of the great eagle didn't help to get rid of the giant), the rest of the shooters repeated the feat and two more trolls lied dead while some more got wounded again. That group of trolls was melting down fast!
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 3
Shagoth decided to join the fight. It first charged Sisters but when they retreated it changed the target and attacked the eagle. Noble bird of pray had no chance in that fight and died quickly. But the crew of the eagle claw somehow survived still and kept fighting.
Throgg decided it is getting too hot for him and moved to another group of trolls. They also shifted towards the elven units in the East too, probably trusting big brutes Giant and Shagoth are not going to leave much to play with.
Outcasts - Turn 3
Elves are really hard pressed now!
Light cavalry is doing what it can to stop the foe. The enemy is quite static now but they are still very dangerous.
Archmage casts another powerful spell but this time cannot hold the magical feedback and detonation kills the bladelord. Only magical crown saves the archmage himself from being dead too. But the powerful Shagoth was wounded very badly too.
Unfortunately brave eagle claw crew died eventually. Nearby archers tried to withdraw in good order but caused a lot of confusion instead. They moved away from the battle entirely and nearby White Lions had to withdraw to regroup as well.
Despite a strike of bad luck, BSB and his trustworthy marines finished off remaining trolls (with the great aid of the second group of Sisters). That even panicked heavily mutated BSB of the chaos army who rushed blindly forward.
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 4
Chaos monsters are breaking through
Wounded Shagoth was still a powerful beast and the valiant last stand of the small unit of Sisters was not enough to bring it down.
Throgg and his trolls destroyed intervening reavers who tried to buy some time for nearby heavy cavalry. Unfortunately, the smell of the monsters of chaos spooked the steeds and the knights had no choice but to withdraw.
Outcasts - Turn 4
Elves do not give up and hit hard again
Archmage summoned his powers again and despite his wounds he dominated the battlefield once more. First his spell finished off the Shagoth and the monster was a pile of smoking meat, bones and armor now. Then he aided sea guard led by his trusted lieutenant. With magically increased accuracy they had no problem in putting down the giant too.
It was clear that the integrity of the army was gone already but whatever was left still could and was determined to show some teeth.
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 5
Throgg bellows his order and lets loose hounds at the elven heavy cavalry (otherwise stupid dogs would be in the way). But somehow multiple blows from many trolls hit the air or are deflected by the dragon armor. Heavy cavalry holds and nearby White Lions prepare for the attack!
Ellyrian Reavers fight bravely too, lose only one of their own and keep fighting!
Outcasts - Turn 5
Lions try to turn the tide of battle
White Lions easily charge the flank of the trolls. However, either fickle nature of chaos was to blame or maybe something even more mysterious but experienced hunters suddenly felt like a group of untrained militia and barely managed to stay in the fight. Their attack fell a troll or two but it was far too few to break them. The situation looked really grim now.
Monsters of Chaos - Turn 6
Outcasts - Turn 6
Ranged attacks are all directed at Dragon Ogres
With almost all units gone there is only magic and shooting left to use for High Elves. However, this time it proves to be a little too much of a challenge and dragon ogres manage to survive.
At this stage both armies disengage, bloodied too much to continue.
After-battle thoughts
When we calculated the points it looked like 11-9 win for Monsters. But according to the tournament rules you add a fraction of comp score at the end and it translated to a draw. I am happy, however, to admit I was slightly defeated this time and it certainly shows if you look at the units that are left.
That was one crazy game with some insane dice rolls. I will follow with some more detailed comments soon but as I have a lot of things to address after that game I am going to leave it at the moment.
Thanks for reading!
Ich muss sagen mich würde es sehr interessieren wie man dieses Konzept auf Vampire umlegen könnte. Bei dem Link weiter oben habe ich dazu leider nichts gefunden. Falls er da Quellen hätte wäre ich sehr dankbar.
Ich geb die Frage mal weiter... Vielleicht ist ihm ja zufällig ein Vampire MSU Projekt bekannt.
Nachtrag:
ZitatAlles anzeigenAfter-battle thoughts
When we calculated the points it looked like 11-9 win for Monsters. But according to the tournament rules you add a fraction of comp score at the end and it translated to a draw. I am happy, however, to admit I was slightly defeated this time and it certainly shows if you look at the units that are left.
That was one crazy game with some insane dice rolls. But let's try to harness the chaos of the battle with some after-battle comments
I have found out I need to play in a counter-attacking style against WoC armies in general. I need to inflict as much damage as possible with shooting/magic, while using support troops to delay other regiments. Putting some extra distance between the armies was very important. Hence deployment further away and shuffling back.
At the same time I am looking for openings and chances to stall the advance of the army. One of such chances is when the warhounds are directly in front of the more powerful units. I know it is tempting to do so to add some shooting protection. However, it is possible to do so without being so close (I think ).
Another opening I tried to use was the giant. My intend was to charge it and wound it so I could possibly win combat and due to relative positioning of giant and shagoth I could hold them there for a while. If I won and by some luck giant broke from combat, I was in the flank of shagoth and I would gladly pursue into fresh enemy. I would probably lose the unit in the process but effectively it would stall the advance further.
Of course the powerful magic phase of Galraouch was very painful. First, I was unable to dispel these gateways despite having quite a good chance to do so. I let the fire in on Lions and of course wardancer rolled well for number of hits and then I lost some more due to warpfire rule Rolling 11 for gateway twice in a row was huge too!
I was glad Archie could fight back. In fact, I was very close to killing Galrauch in first round. I got massive 12 hits for searing doom and that transferred into 7 wounds I believe. But wardancer did well with his 6++ ward and managed to keep Galrauch on a single wound for a little longer.
There was an interesting situation turn 2, which I probably didn't explain well with the story. Archmage and Bladelord were the only survivors from magic. Then we had shooting phase and one of the heads breathed at them. As it was template weapon we rolled for number of hits and it was a 1! So I was lucky not to lose them again. Wardancer also mentioned he didn't know why exactly he decided not to use second breath. Could have been a huge game changer at this stage.
It was already suggested to me and I drew that conclusion as well that it was a mistake to keep Archmage and Bladeolrd together. They should separate and conserve points. Instead, I lost 176 points for nothing, miscasting later on. And detonations in the building are not good idea either, especially when you roll a 6 for number of hits!
I was very pleased with a shooting phase too. Magic was powerful and the fact I had level 4 against no wizard did help here. But shooting had an impact as well. These resilient trolls were much less tough without their regeneration. When they also slowed down their advance I was able to finish off the unit all by shooting.
In fact I was surprised wardancer didn't push forward no matter what. Yes, that would expose the flank but I had only 2 units there and only one heavy cavalry which on its own might not be able to do much. Especially against regeneration.
There were a few unlucky moments for both of us. First, that failed break with DP that allowed giant to attack eagle claw shortly after, was painful. But I see that I should take into account such a situation and maybe it was not such a great idea to charge with them in the first place.
A few unlucky panic checks also were brutal. DP could easily destroy hounds and then pursue into DO. Even if trolls reformed and charged them shortly after then great! I would have diverted them from the more juicy targets. Panicking archers and lions in one go was another problem. Lions could threaten wounded Shagoth for example, while archers could pin it down for a turn.
On the other hand, wardancer had some rotten luck with his trolls later! Could you believe he lost combat on the charge? Then I of course had to fail fear test! hitting on 5+ and no re-rolls hurt. Also, attacks back were hitting on 3+ too! It really went wrong here for both of us although in the end the blunder for wardancer was not a problem in the end.
In general I was happy with the game and my performance as it was a tough match up with all these multi-wound, high S monsters. However, I always like to see what I could do better. I think the mixed deployment, with shooting and combat units alternating, is the key here. I can have spread formation, be able to shoot but be close enough to intercept too.
Hier Swordmasters Antwort auf die Frage ob ihm Vampire MSU Projekte bekannt sind:
ZitatI am not aware of any projects like that. There were some minor topics on other forums (Carpe Noctem) but as always they were treated as wrong ideas.
A friend of mine started a topic some time ago on TK forum and there were some armies that did well with that concept but again, I am not aware of the regularly documented battle log.
