MSU-Battle-Reports (English)

  • CanCon 2014 - Summary


    In short another CanCon was a blast. Even more so due to the fact we had 122 participants, which is huge difference if you take into account the fact that last year there were 90+ players and two years ago only 70+ were present. There were a lot of interstate players and that definitely added to the uniqueness of the event. But what about the details?


    Venue


    CanCon traditionally is taking place in the EPIC centre in Canberra and that means space is not an issue. I really liked the fact that tables were arranged in pairs that helped enormously with Battle for the Pass as one edge was freely accessible. WFB tournament was only one of the many other tournaments and activities that took place during that gaming event but spectators never were a problem and in fact players were very happy to chat to strangers and explain what they are actually doing.


    Tables/Terrain


    It is very important to highlight that terrain was provided by the whole community, be it individuals or clubs, who responded fantastically to the call for help by TO's. Initially they had space for 80 players but due to popular demand they managed to secure more space and tables. But it turned out that they were short of terrain pieces. Fortunately, many players were simply top blokes and brought whatever they could. Thanks to that tables looked very good and terrain was varied.


    Some players were of an opinion that the quality of the terrain was not good and that it was not well distributed on the tables, creating some problems during the games. If that was the case then I was lucky not to experience such problems and I liked all the tables I played on. The terrain provided very good options for both players and games were definitely more interesting because of that.


    Things always can be better but in my opinion it was great anyway!


    Organization/Player's Pack


    Dave and Tom did a great job as organizers. It also shows that community is great as 2 referees were more than enough for solving problems for 122 players! It was an enormous effort to make that tournament happen and I cannot say how much I am grateful for what they did to run it very well. Fantastic organization guys! Well done! =D>


    This year the players pack used Swedish Comp to modify the games results instead of adding fixed points to the overall score. It meant that Dave and Tom had to spent hours to check the army lists so that all was in order. It is definitely a huge responsibility for the organizers. However, I think it also created a situation where people started bringing things that are not usually seen on the tournaments. I believe many discovered that what they thought might be a liability was in fact a very good choice. If the goal was to achieve variety among the lists then it was there for sure!


    My performance


    I will not deny that I had high hopes when entering completion this year. After being 4th last year and making to the Masters I think I got used to good results. I had two goals in terms of competitive performance. Win more games than I won last year (5 out of 8) and get more points than last year, possibly getting more than 100 out of 8 games (last year I earned 94 points).


    I accomplished first goal winning 6 out of 8 games which I was very happy with. Unfortunately, I earned only 85 points and that was way too low. I ended up on 49th place that was, to be honest, huge disappointment for me :( The conclusion from that result is simple, in order to place well one has to win but has to win big. In fact, it is better to lose and then win big instead of keeping the clean victory record with small wins only.


    The winner of the tournament collected 121 battle points giving the average of 15+ per game. With the brackets used at CanCon it means one has to win by 1201+ points at least. It is not a small victory.


    I think I made a mistake when I assumed in many of my games that I simply cannot touch the most powerful enemy unit/character and chased the smaller regiments that were easier to kill but were not nearly as expensive. I rarely got enemy characters either. My games were more passive than usual and I tried to hunt down support troops of the enemy as main goal, not to clean the paths for the assault troops. As a result I was winning only small victories. One massacre threw me back by a lot too.


    Another reason is that my opponents often knew already what not to do against MSU. That meant I needed to come up with new tricks and with passive play it was not going to happen. Does it mean that the army list is not good enough? Not at all! But I decided to make changes in order to help me get back to the more aggressive and combat orientated play style. I will talk about options I am considering in the army list topic soon.


    Acknowledgements


    First of all, great thank you to the TO's, Dave and Tom once again! Then to all my opponents who gave me the opportunity to play 8 fantastic games. Thanks, guys! =D>


    Special thanks go to Il Meastro for his brilliant stories. I wish he had time for all reports but I am sure all readers appreciate what he has written so far a lot! =D>


    And to all the forum members who took their time to comment on the games, it was great chatting with you and I am glad you enjoyed the reports enough to leave your very valuable feedback!


    Thanks for reading!

  • hi guys,


    I have 3 more reports in the pipeline but before I post them I would like to ask a question. I have noticed that the reports are read but it seems that there are fewer comments than before. I wonder what is the reason and what can I do better to spark some discussions? Your feedback is very important so please, don't be shy! :)


    Thanks in advance!

  • Hi Swordmaster,


    I still enjoy reading your reports. Many questions I had about MSU in general have been answered in my own battles. Your reports are still entertaining and I`m having a lot of fun reading them in the evening when coming home from work.


    It has been some days since I read the last report and I don`t know if I had any questions. Well I didn`t ask and so I assume I had none. But here`s something where I can need your professional expertise :O


    I`ve started playing Tomb Kings and one question that occured in the board was if Tomb Kings can also build a competitive MSU-army. Here are my thoughts on it:


    pros:
    - they have a great shooting even when moving and beeing long range etc.
    - they have lots of cheap units (staff) that they can use
    - with their special "entombed beneath the sands"-rule they have a high potential of surprising the enemy
    - causing terror might let your opponent flee and you don`t even have to fight
    - chariots are core and their impact hits strike before ASF
    - their magic is build for MSU:
    1. movement spell is great
    2. extra attacks are great for small units
    3. killing blow also makes small units a lot stronger


    cons:
    - as they`re not allowed to march it will be hard to get some good positioning during the game even with the movement spell from their lore.
    - they have no small-sized heavy hitters except for the necropolis knights (which are almost 200 pts for 9 wounds)
    - they rely so much on their hierophant that if they lose them the whole army might collapse


    As one can see there are more pros than cons but I think the cons are more important. Not having a good movement phase will be the most disadvantage when playing MSU. Magic is always very randomly. What is your opinion?

    Universal Battle: Aemkei81


    9k Druchii
    8k Khemri

  • Hey swordmaster,
    I agree with Aem_kei, that i really enjoy reading your reports.


    I play High elves myself but still need more miniatures to play games like you do. I am missing the number as well as the variety of models. Since i have the phoenix guard, i play it an my opponents hate it :D but the PG doesn't really fit into MSU-ARMY like you play. Right now i want to testplay a 15model-PG for games up to 2000 points. My plan is to combine it with white lions and dragon princes and a few bolt throwers (or a frost heart phoenix) but I'm not sure which characters to use.
    I like the loremaster but i think an archmage can be more potent without any or just really cheap equipment.


    Sorry, if there's something wrong with my english. Please don't hesitate to ask, if there are weird sentences. :)



    Gruß Julius

  • Hey, I still read the reports, although it's got a bit busy at work in the last weeks. But your reports are one of the few things I try to read eitherway.
    And you are rights: It is more interesting to post, if people comment and discuss you postings. Having a bit time I will do so again.

  • I just read your summary again and I agree, that you cannot have big wins without facing your opponent's big blocks. I think, that you have the tools for it, so maybe it needs some courage in these situations. E.g., a high elf prince with some dragon princes is really not that unkillable, that you have to avoid close combat all the time. I think you could have thought about shooting some of his dragon princes and dealing with the rest of them afterwards with white lions and/or swordmasters, while distracting the prince in a challenge.
    So maybe you should really add some heavy hitters, that you trust more in such combats. Maybe a frostheart phoenix or lion charriots (against other elves with ASF) would help. I think you Seaguard could be replaced. I target to play it like this:


    Archmage with Book of Hoeth
    BSB on steed with Reaver Bow and Potion of Strength
    3x 5 Ellyrian Reavers with bows
    3x 5 Silverhelms
    12 Swordmasters
    11 Swordmasters
    2 x 10 White Lions
    5 Dragon Princes
    Frostheart Phoenix
    2x 5 Sisters
    2x Bolt Thrower
    2x 1 Eagle


    Taking only musicians for the regiments (which is of course not a good idea when playing with scenario rules) it is 2.500 points.
    It is very similar to your lists, but maybe with a bit more close combat punch and mobility (and less, but still quite good shooting).


    I am curious, how you are going to change your army and waiting for more of your amazing reports.

  • Hi guys!


    Thanks a lot for your feedback! I am very happy to know I haven't bored you with the reports yet! :) I will try to add some more soon but let me first address the comments you have made.


    @ Aem_Kei


    Thank you for your kind words! I really appreciate them!


    As to the Tomb Kings they are indeed a tricky army. I do believe every army has the ability to build a MSU version of their own. But that still means using their relative strengths to the maximum and minimizing their inherent weaknesses. Having said that I don't have gaming experience with other armies than HE and even with them I offer my observations based on game experience rather as a food for thought. Some things worked form me so I am sure they can work for others. Unfortunately I am not able to provide real game examples to support some of my ideas so I hope they can work in the case of other armies or players.


    I believe you have identified the pros and cons properly. MSU is about movement phase and it is true if you build an army that is combat orientated, combined arms or shooting + avoidance type. When your army cannot march it means that you are at a disadvantage. In order to make the units work you need to be even more careful with the deployment as well as their relative positioning. You can't fully rely on magic either. However, there are things to do in order to improve your situation:


    - plan as if you are not going to march so that if you can cast a spell it is more like a bonus rather than something that you absolutely have to have
    - use entombed beneath the sands units, that is also risky but at least allows you to use the opportunities during the game and position the regiments in good spots
    - magic can still be your friend and you may try to get more dice with casket and use hierotitan too to draw dispel dice to save your power dice for safe movement spell casting


    I think TK might be better at counter attacking rather than attacking as that allows you to mitigate the disadvantage due to lack of marching. In order to do that you need the enemy to move towards you and a catapult or two + casket may be incentive enough to force the foe to do so. Your shooting is a great support anyway and you should use it mainly to hunt down some of the support units of the enemy. You may also need some time before the regiment dig out and you may not have the advantage of outdeploing the enemy due to the ambushing troops being out of the table.


    The type of troops and their relative size and number is always up to a player. There are no rules really and even if you field some bigger regiment(s) it can still be MSU. Think what you want to achieve in the first place, what kind of player you are and tailor your army accordingly. You may have a look at special characters if they are allowed. I know a friend of mine won a tournament with MSU-ish TK but he had Arkhan as a general and Death magic was great for him. I am always great fan of less popular choices so maybe even Ushabti or Collosus can make it to your army. After all, they have high S attacks that are needed for the army.


    As a reference point have a look at the force Nick Hoen, Oz ETC player took in 2013:



    I hope that helps. I will try to find some more information on possibilities for TK, maybe examples of the army lists but my general approach would be to ask yourself first, what kind of player you are, what units you like and which you think would support your preferred style from the TK army book.


    @ Julius


    Thanks a lot! I am very happy you enjoy reading the reports! Will try to provide them soon! Oh, and there is nothing wrong with your English! :)


    Actually, some people suggested PG is a very good choice for MSU because they have resilience other small units don't have. What is more, in comparison to Swordmasters and White Lions their advantage also lies in having re-rolls to hit. S4 might not be great on its own but they can co-operate nicely with other regiments, they can also be boosted by magic, Wyssan's Wildfrom being probably the most popular spell here. If you enjoy using them and they work well for you there is no need not to include them!


    I think the Loremaster vs the Archmage debate is the one that may last forever and in the end it will not provide definitive answers! :) I prefer to look at them as two good options. I started to use Loremaster simply to see what the new character is because my Archmage was already great. Loremaster has fantastic choice selection and there is always something he can cast so he is good offensively. In defence Archmage has the advantage. For me the very important thing is that I can use Loremaster as a warrior too. He is ok in close combat, he can handle himself in the fight against rank and file and even add a wound or two to the fight. He is not super hero so you have to be careful with him but I like that fact that I can move aggressively with his unit and not keep one regiment in the second line to babysit him.


    @ amadil


    As you can see real life interferes with my hobby time too so I was not able to reply when I hoped to do so. My apologies for the delay!


    I would like to highlight that I am happy when people read the reports. I understand it takes time to make comments to one and if you rather use it to reply elsewhere or focus on other aspects of your free time then I have absolutely nothing against it. Why would I? My main concern, however, was that maybe there is something wrong I should improve or maybe they are boring since they feature the very same approach I have started with two years ago (if not more!).


    I am also happy to tell you that indeed, more aggressive approach does pay off and in the recent tournament I have attended (and I am currently writing reports from) such more decisive action was much more fruitful. I agree that some units look more scary than they are and I simply didn't use the potential I had to get at them. It does not mean I need to be reckless but definitely more aggressive. Even with the army list I have, although I made some changes in it as you will see soon.


    That is a very interesting list and I like the large number of cavalry there! I have two questions to the choices you have made:


    1. What magic lore would you give to your archmage?
    2. How do you feel about Frosty in the MSU? My concern is that he is standing out a lot and may attract too much attention than he really deserves.


    Thanks a lot for your comments, very much appreciated!


    Cheers!

  • Dear Swordmaster, thanks very much for your detailed answers. I am glad to hear that your more aggressive approach has already proven its power. For I am going to play a game today, I will only give short answers to your questions.


    1. I actually like the lore of shadow very much for MSU concept, because it has two or three really helpful curses, that can help all your units in the main combats (whereas support spells can only help one unit. Furthermore it can counter some weaknesses of the concept, I guess: kill warmachines, monsters (and hellcannon) and/or deathstars with spell no. 5 and provide one unit a very high strength to counter even the hardest armour or toughness. So it is quite flexible and works well with multicharges.
    One other option could be lore of death, because it might be a good idea to kill mighty characters before they kill whole units. And it has also two fantastic curses (-1S, -1T and -3LD) that should make winning the big fights easier, because the opponent's main unit won't be that heavy and/or is even steadfastly only testing on bad LD.


    2. I haven't testplayed the frosti, because I do not have one yet. My thought is, that he can attract some attention and help in big multiple combats with his aura and a big damage output. Together with one of the two lores your opponent should not be able to get the bulk of your army with his full strenght (which seems to me quite appreciated with elves).


    So far for now. Now I have to testplay my Chaos MSU against lizardmen again.
    Looking forward to your new reports.

  • Greetings!


    I have just returned from a local tournament hosted by ANU Wargaming Society. It was a small event that attracted attention of 18 players. I really hope that number will swell in future years, as they guys did fantastic job and it was a great pleasure to attend again! It was 2 day tournament with 5 games at 2400 points total. It had scenarios, some of them modified. I will explain them when I write the report from the particular battle where they were used. There was also a nice addition to the players pack that allowed to take allies. One could either enter with monolithic army or get main force at 1800 with allied contingent at 600. Both forces had to be composed according to the rules as if they were separate armies. Only alliances from trusted allies were allowed, as per rulebook.


    Unfortunately, I didn't have a chance to play against allied force and I didn't field one either. But I know some armies were composed according to the rules for allies.


    After some deliberation I decided to take only painted models, although I was considering some changes to the core unit set up. I decided against unpainted models because I really enjoy playing against painted armies and I wanted to make sure my opponent had such a force assembled on the other side of the table. I perfectly understand when somebody does not field painted force. It is a process and many armies are simply new ones. New players in particular were encouraged to come along so there was no painting score in this event. However, one could be still selected for a best painted army award and I admit I wanted to see if I can get a shot at this one too! Last but not least, it is also well known that painted models simply fight better :D


    Outcasts - Army List



    Game 1 - Dave - Dwarves - Battle Line



    Game 2 - Adam - Beastmen - Dawn Attack



    Game 3 - Spencer - Tzeentch Warriors - Meeting Engagement



    Game 4 - John - Monsters of Chaos - Blood and Glory



    Game 5 - Charles - Warriors of Chaos - Battle for the Pass



    Stay tuned!

  • Greetings!


    As it seemed it could have been my last tournament in Canberra (at least for time being) I wanted to use the opportunity and grudge one of the players I met plenty of times but have never had an opportunity to play against. It was of course my fault and I am sorry I didn't organize myself better to play earlier or in fact, regularly.


    Game 1 - Dave - Dwarves - Battle Line


    Dave is a very well known person in the Australian community of warhammer players as he is one of the most active tournament organizers. Thanks to him (and his helpers!) the biggest and longest event in Oz, CanCon, took place in January. Fortunately, there are also some other TO's in the local scene, so he can have fun with rolling dice and pushing mandollies forward too!


    Not only he kindly agreed to accept my grudge but he also brought a brand new Dwarven army! It was my first encounter with Dwarves after they got their book revisited. Dave had a lot of alternative models as well as new ones in his army and I can't wait to see all these great miniatures and fantastic conversions painted!


    Below is his list with all the details (Many thanks to Dave himself who also provided all the lists of my opponents so I have all the items right for a change :)).


    Dwarves - Army List



    Deployment



    Outcasts - Turn 1



    Dwarves - Turn 1



    Outcasts - Turn 2



    Dwarves - Turn 2



    Outcasts - Turn 3



    Dwarves - Turn 3


  • Outcasts - Turn 4



    Dwarves - Turn 4



    Outcasts - Turn 5



    Dwarves - Turn 5



    Outcasts - Turn 6



    Dwarves - Turn 6



    After-battle thoughts



    Thanks for reading!

  • What a nice report again. I love it! :D


    I didn't have your detailed list in mind so i was wondering because your maneuvering of the Dragonprinces. But it showed again that musicians are worth taking, i think.
    Do you think the nobles performed well with the DPs? Aren't they to expensive for what they do (except for bringing the star lance into a challenge ;)?


    Your opponent had some bad luck on his war machines but he made also some mistakes i think. You already mentioned the deployment but i think he shouldn't have waited for his grudgethrowers to die to move his infantry. And then he split his troops up by himself so it was easier for you. I don't want to say that it was all easy for you as i know how tough dwarves can be also in close combat.... you finished the game very good.
    Thanks again.



    Gruß Julius


    By the way: hopefully i get my first try for a 2000 points list (kind of Msu style) on demons today. I try to make some notes and/or pictures.

  • Hi Julius!


    Thanks! I am glad to hear you liked the report! Thanks for the comments too!


    I missed musicians on a few occasions this tournament but fortunately it was nothing crucial this time. However, I will need to revise the list again. The nobles are great addition and I am sure I haven't used their full potential. Musicians gave me points for them so now I have to reconsider what I need more. Technically I can make mounted BSB and have 3 characters total but I will talk about it after the tournament reports are done.


    I definitely didn't use nobles well this game but even with grudge throwers only I felt I don't want to risk them being hit so they had to join dragon princes. But they offer quite nice versatility and add to the punch as they have higher strength on the charge.


    Dave, my opponent, made mistakes and that contributed to his loss. Maybe some of them were due to the fact that I had so many units and he could not make up his mind if it is better to remain static or to move towards me. I think that made things worse for him. I guess he should have opted for one or another but changing plans dramatically in the middle of the game is not good idea. Capitalising on opponents mistakes is part of the game and I will never deny it. But I am glad I could spot the right opportunity and I think it also demonstrated that in right circumstances I can take on very big blocks and dismantle them relatively quickly too. I didn't get points for Longbeards but in two rounds of combat they were almost all gone which for me is impressive in itself.


    What was more important was the fact that I did it with the tools I had in the army list before. Of course noble was very helpful and I am not saying his contribution was negligible but the units themselves killed many longbeards.


    Looking forward to reading about your game!


    Cheers!

  • Just want to add my thoughts on musicians:


    When I first tried MSU I had them in every unit just to be able to reform and/or get the +1 on the rally. Then I started to analyse how often situations occured where it was so important that one will spend about 100 points for musicians. I thought about spending the points in another unit or increasing some units by 2-4 models. In the end I decided to use my musicians as follows:


    - fast cavalry must have a musician
    - first infantry row usually gets musician
    - second row and scouts no musicians


    The fast cav are for sure the most important units in my amies so it is always worth it. Playing Dark Elves I love to use Dark Riders and Warlocks to threaten my opponent with bolts and doombolts. These are the units that might be attacked by the cc-units of my opponents in the first 2 rounds. So I decided I want to have units that can flee far and rally quick.


    My first infantry row often consists of corsairs, mostly armed with handbows. They are a fantastic shield against shooting and the opponent is scared of the double shots when charging with light armoured or T3 units. Even if they are not high damage dealers they have made themselves essential for my games. But as they have to react on every move my opponent makes they need musicians.


    Second row usually consists of Executioners, Witches, Cold One Riders or Black Guard. They have a great output but have to be protected. As they are normally not the first target they can react slower than all my other units. There is also no reason to rally them because when they come to attack it is all or nothing.


    So I spend about 50 points per game for my musicians. The above mentioned is a tactic I played for the last let`s say 10 games with my Dark Elves and it worked very well.

    Universal Battle: Aemkei81


    9k Druchii
    8k Khemri

  • Hi Aem_kei ,


    Very good approach showing that there are different roles for units and that is why they may need different equipment. If the upgrades for musicians were less expensive it would have been possible to include them everywhere but as the total cost for commands adds up quickly one has to make some decisions. Personally, I still like having musicians in my combat troops because I have found out that sometimes they are just faster when they can change the direction and still move after swift reforming. But you gave me some food for thought and I will definitely reconsider my approach to the command groups in general. Thanks a lot!

  • Greetings!


    Game 2 - Adam - Beastmen - Dawn Attack


    Adam is a very active tournament player, a fellow Master player and the guy responsible for that unique 8-dragon slayers Dwarven army that was on everybody lips before Masters tournament. Somehow, despite taking part in many other tournaments at the same time and often being very close to each other on the ladder, we have never played a single game. This time fate finally pitched us against each other.


    Adam is also known for having multitude of armies and for taking different forces to different events. This time he chose Beastie Boyz:


    Beastmen - Army List



    Deployment



    Beastmen - Turn 1



    Outcasts - Turn 1



    Beastmen - Turn 2



    Outcasts - Turn 2


    .


    Beastmen - Turn 3



    Outcasts - Turn 3


  • Beastmen - Turn 4



    Outcasts - Turn 4



    Beastmen - Turn 5



    Outcasts - Turn 5



    After-battle thoughts



    Thanks for reading!

  • These have been two very enjoyable reports and as a Beastmen player I have to say, that deployment was very bad luck for your opponent. His bull characters could have eaten quite a lot of your army on their own, if the Gor unit would not have been killed like this (because of the death of unprotected BSB) and would have given them some time. So with some Ungor raiders there, it could have been another game.
    What I do not understand is, that he plays the Razorgors in a unit of 3. Playing three lone Razorgors seems a better way of enabling the big blocks and characters to get the combat matchups, he wants, and they do not loose there strenght though.


    Whatever - really two great reports that made me want to finish my Highelf MSU army even faster.

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von arnadil ()

  • Great Reports :) I enjoyed reading them what was the end score of the Beastmen game? ^^


    Im glad an happy to read your reports again :)

    Into Battle we ride with gods by our side,
    we are strong and not afraid to die!
    -Ensiferum

  • Hi guys!


    Thanks a lot for your comments! I really appreciate them!


    @ arnadil


    Thanks!


    I agree that the random deployment affected Adam more than me. I think that is a small advantage of MSU where you can still create a cohesive battle line even if the regiments are not exactly where you wanted them to be. I have a lot of respect for beastmen and I fought against Minobus before so I know how deadly it can be. And I totally agree that with skirmishers and supporting units around the game would have been different. However, Adam tried to play to his strengths and be aggressive enough to choke my small units in the deployment. I am very happy I spotted the opportunity to assassinate BSB as it is a very important task to get rid of him. It was possibly a mistake by Adam to position him in the middle of the unit, if he positioned him next to Great Shaman or even in the corner, then I would have been limited in the number of attacks against him.


    But that is also the idea of scenarios, which introduce some unexpected circumstances to the game and players have to adapt quickly. Please, note, that I had 5/6 chances to start first and inflict some more casualties with magic and shooting but Adam rolled well and stole the initiative! In such situation I also had to change the plans quickly :) Trust me, it was not easy game to win and I am happy I did but I also know that next time the result may be completely different.


    As to Razorgors Adam said it allows him to use them more as a unit of their own and losing one does not create a panic check. Single Razorgors are very useful but for different tasks. They can be great at fighting other support units but not exactly on their own if needed. Both options are very good and I guess it is simply up to a player to choose one or another.


    I am also happy to know you want to finish your HE MSU faster! Let me know when you do and better still, post some pictures!


    @ Goblinspießa


    Thanks!


    I won 16-4 which was a very good result for me, also because the brackets in this tournament were a little wider than in other tournaments in Europe for example (as far as I have noticed in some players packs).


    Thanks again! I will try to post some more soon!


    Cheers!