MSU-Battle-Reports (English)

  • Dwarves - Turn 4

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    Dwarves fight back

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    Hammer time!

    Warriors moved fast but their short legs gave no hope to catch swift reavers who feigned flight and moved out of harms range. Exposed Dragon Princes were not quick enough to get second Dragon Slayer and fell to the powerful counter charge by the Hammerers.

    Dwarven line was not as smooth any more but the warriors still presented unified front.

    Outcasts - Turn 4

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    Ellyrian Reavers blocking the enemy units - at least that was the plan!

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    Swordmasters challenge Dwarven Warriors

    Elves move much faster now and position themselves for inevitable fights. Reavers perform tough duty of harassing and distracting the enemy while Swordmasters challenge Warriors to enter the combat and show who is more skillful in wielding great weapons.

    Dwarves - Turn 5

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    Hammerers outsmart the Reavers

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    While warriors finally catch some light cavalry

    Dwarves decided that attack is the best form of defense and charged again. Warriors fought the reavers, who this time held their ground but after quick exchange of blows only single horsemen was left and he could not hold against the whole regiment of angry Dwarves.

    Second unit of Reavers was ignored and Hammerers, as if magic touched, reformed swiftly and charged exposed flank of Swordmasters who had to retreat. Fortunately, Hammerers were not fast enough to get into contact with any other unit.

    Outcasts - Turn 5

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    Attack on the left flank

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    Units on the right flank stand by

    Swordmasters and Archers charge in unison against the warriors who suffer horrendous casualties but bite back and are still steadfast.

    White Lions guard the flank of their companions by moving in front of the hammerers and blocking their path to the combat. On the right flank units move and counter move but still do not commit.

    Dwarves - Turn 6

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    Who is more stubborn?

    Few Swordmasters die to Dwarven axes but not before they fell many of the warriors. With pressure from the flank they do not have numbers any more to hold. They break and once more, humble Archers run down their foes and capture their standard.

    White Lions attack Dwarven BSB but somehow fail miserably. The retribution was swift and only thanks to their stubbornness they held their ground.

    Outcasts - Turn 6

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    Surrounded but holding the line

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    Last push!

    Elves orchestrated the last powerful attack. On the left Reavers attacked the cannon, destroyed it and overrun in time to join Archers attacking Thunderers. Combined effort destroyed that unit too.

    Meanwhile, on the right flank, 3 units charged against the Dwarven warriors. However, the attack was not as powerful as expected and not as many Dwarves fell as Elves would want to. Hard pressed Warriors managed to hold their ground. Barely!

    While the Dwarven army was still a force in strength, their positions were overrun and they didn't maintain the formation so the main objective for Elves, to break through, was achieved.

    After-battle thoughts

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    First of all, I would like to thank James for as always enjoyable game. It was a very close game, as in the end I managed to scrap 11-9 victory. It seems that I lost a few units on the way and the fact that the last charge didn't break second units of warriors also mattered.

    In general I was happy with the way the army worked this time. There was a lot of going on and the game was not boring at all. As always there are things that I think could have been done better.

    I think moving away from the forest on the left was a mistake as I didn't avoid the miners and they slowed the advance instead. I believe I should have positioned Lions on that flank as even if charged they should hold the attackers in place and would allow for the counter charge.

    Placing Swordmasters in front of the maze was also a mistake. Shooters would have been way better there as they don't have to advance that fast but can still be active.

    The most serious mistake was with the reavers that supposed to block hammerers. I didn't do it well enough and they could charge anyway, thanks to the Anvil of course. Fortunately for me, James didn't attack with Warriors to pin the unit down as it would have seen them dead for sure. Warriors to the front and Hammerers to the flank would have destroyed them easily and put other units in danger too.

    I am very happy with the last turn charges though. I was close to breaking that second unit of warriors but true to Dwarven fashion they were too stubborn to admit defeat :)

    I hope you enjoyed the report!

    Thanks for reading!

  • Greetings!

    Game 7 - Jason - Dwarves - Battle for the Pass

    Another game of CanCon, this time Battle for the Pass and ... another Dwarven army to fight against :) This time I had a great pleasure to play against Jason and his great looking army.

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    Dwarves in their full glory - courtesy of ThaneG from wargamerau

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    Kong of the Hill! - courtesy of ThaneG from wargamerau

    Playing against a defensive force in the battle for the pass is always a challenge. First, the distance usually is greater than in the normal Battle line scenario. Second, such armies tend to sport some good shooting units and that means that whatever makes to the other side of the pass might not be of any significant combat value. And third, narrower frontage meant it was way harder for me to outflank the enemy.

    Technically, one could play defensively too and simply stay put. Some of the shooting elements do not have that long range and these that do may not be sufficient to kill enough of your forces to get many victory points on their own. Of course there are exceptions. But that would have made for a dull and boring game.

    As you could have already noticed from the picture above, Jason's army was not gunline type that gave me some hope.

    Dwarves - Army List

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    King, Shieldbearers, Rune of Challenge
    Runesmith, 3 x Rune of Spellbreaking
    Thane, BSB

    40 Longbeards, Great Weapons, Full Command
    30 Hammerers, Full Command
    16 Thunderers
    20 Slayers
    Gyrocopter
    Grudge Thrower
    Cannon
    Organ Gun

    King

    Unfortunately, I don't have the copy of Jason's list so I cannot tell you what else did he have but we can assume he was hard to kill. His presence made tough unit of Hammerers even tougher. I don't have tools in my army that can open that Dwarven can quickly and with Hammerers as bodyguards I had slim chances to survive such encounter in one-on-one combats. But that is never an option.

    Basically, very good leader, very well protected too.

    Runesmith

    Last time I played against 3 runes of spellbreaking! :) It was always very annoying that Dwarves could use the whole library of scrolls. Well, it was never going to be easy to get some spells through, so I was not complaining!

    BSB

    Again, apologies for lack of details. I believe he simply had some protective gear. BSB is a must in many armies and Dwarves need one too. Ld9-10 is great but re-rolls make it excellent!

    Longbeards

    I need to check if Swedish comp FAQ allows Dwarves to field them without warriors or maybe I simply messed up something. But I di believe these were Lonbeards. Even if they were regular Dwarves with great weapons, a horde of them would not go down easily. It is true I could fit in many more units against such a broad frontage and if I could close in early enough maybe I would have risked that. But that block can definitely take damage and hit back hard.

    Hammerers

    Second combat block in the army. These guys had to be killed to a Dwarf more often than not. I have tools to defeat them but if I were I need to ignore and divert the other units. Even then it would take several turns and cost me dearly. In the battle for the pass it would mean very difficult task to accomplish due to larger distance and less space to set up flank charges.

    Slayers

    Quite unusual to see them in such numbers in a single unit. Definitely a good target for bows, as usually Dwarves are way to tough to harm with S3 chop sticks. They would go nowhere no matter what and that means they have a chance to significantly slow down the advance. Even better in the battle for the pass.

    Thunderers

    Very good shooters, especially for the defensive force when they don't have to chase the enemy, as the enemy comes to them. Relarively well protected against low S missiles. Might harm fast troops as eagles or reavers do not have many wounds to keep them safe from the shooting.

    Artillery

    One of each of the deadly war machines. Organ Gun is always target number one for me but its short range allowed for some manoeuvres while being safe. But it had to be dealt with quickly if I wanted to have time to attack other units.

    Cannon is less of a problem against my army but poor eagles have to use cover for sure. Grudge Thrower is much more dangerous as the template can easily cover whole units and with good rolls, can exterminate them entirely.

    Gyrocopter

    Very annoying flier. Tough and well armoured, can expose itself to shooting and still emerge intact. Its steam cannon can be quite dangerous to my small units as well so I had to try and eliminate it quickly in order to be able to manoeuvre freely.

    I expected Jason to deploy tight in one corner with war machines nicely protected from the shooting and from the direct attacks. The good things was that his army had significantly lower comp (I think we had 3 points difference) so I simply had to be careful not to do something stupid, keep up the pressure and look for openings to get some of his weaker regiments.

    First, I wanted to deal with gyrocopter then with organ gun. With these two threats I could move freely and try to set up some charges, hopefully with enough time to do so.

    Deployment

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    You shall not pass? :)

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    Deployment of the armies after vanguard moves

    I was surprised to see the Dwarven army spread a little and war machines exposed. I wanted to use that to my advantage. Archers would start shooting the organ gun as soon as possible. Some target saturation would also be in order. Hills, although low, would provide some hard cover from the Thunderers. Lone grudge thrower was also good news as I could get there with my cavalry. Last but not least, the gyrocopter also was too far ahead of the main forces and I could form double line to catch it. Cavalry would move fast forward while infantry would move behind them. That would deny safe landing zones behind the cavalry and if it wanted to fly back towards its own likes I could send some cavalry after it.

    Would that plan work? :)

    We rolled off for the first turn and there were no surprises here as Jason won that easily.

    Dwarves - Turn 1

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    Dwarven point of view

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    No need to rush, they will come!

    Dwarves had a very nice position and there was no need to hurry as they knew Elves would come anyway. Some of the Longbears opened flasks with something that aided their already grumpy mood, others smoked some pipes, while others simply did what Longbeards do the best - grumbled.

    The artillery crews had plenty to choose from in terms of targets but could not hit much yet.

    Outcasts - Turn 1

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    Elves move at a double!

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    Who can reach the Dwarven lines first?

    With Dwarven army standing still at the end of the pass, Elves had no other option but to move forward at a double. However, the fastest regiments still stayed out of range of the deadly organ gun. The faster cavalry moved so that they threatened gyrocopter hiding behind the forest while following infantry denied good landing zones for it.

    Dwarves - Turn 2

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    Elves are getting closer

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    But the Dwarves didn't quite care

    Dwarven army was immovable as a mountain in their chosen formation. Only gyrocopter moved a little and tried to steam some dragon princes to death but failed. On the other hand, the crew of the grudge thrower managed to reduce elven Eagle Claw bolt thrower to a nice pile of splinters.

    Outcasts - Turn 2

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    Cavalry is really close now

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    Infantry still stayed behind

    Elves continued their advance. This time gyrocopter had nowhere to hide and was shot down mercilessly. Larry managed to sneak in an Iceshard Blizzard on the Organ Gun crew. Would it be enough to stop infernal machine?

    Dwarves - Turn 3

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    Fast elven troops get punished

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    Thunderers in action

    With some more threatening approach by elven cavalry, Dwarves finally started to treat them more seriously. The first to drop was great eagle though. Then thunderers aimed at the reavers and only a single rider remained alive after the salvo. His companions from the second unit were also hit but were in much better shape.

    Only Organ Gun was strangely silent. Finally Slayers moved towards elven knights, shouting insults and daring them to charge.

    Outcasts - Turn 3

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    Charge!

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    And the result of the attack

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    Dwarven war machines are eliminated (almost)

    Elven cavalry charges! Dragon Princes attack the isolated grudge thrower and made a short work of the crew. Reavers attack Organ Gun and surprisingly, the crew breaks. Two war machines destroyed!

    Then Larry the Loremaster, always happy to play with fireworks, casts a nice fireball at a cannon, frying two of the crew members. And a few white lions with a spectacular magical feedback.

  • Dwarves - Turn 4

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    Dwarves attempt to counter attack

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    But are unable to catch swift elven cavalry

    After unexpected victory over organ gun, reavers where now in the open and nearby Longbeards charged to punish the elves for such a barbarous act. Elven light cavalry swiftly reformed and feigned flight. Slayers too attempted to catch them but also failed.

    Outcasts - Turn 4

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    Heavy cavalry vs Slayers

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    Slayers suffer casualties but don't care - this is their time to seek glorious death!

    Dragon Princes charge the Slayers from two directions and kill quite a few but their companions don't move an inch. Brutal war of attrition starts.

    The rest of the elven army approaches carefully, not to get too close to Dwarven main blocks. The cannon is finally destroyed but also Thunderers take the brunt of the various missile attacks.

    Dwarves - Turn 5

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    Slayers alone hold the flank

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    Longbears reform into even deeper formation

    Dwarven main regiments didn't move forward knowing all too well that exposing flanks and abandoning defensive positions means trouble. Slayers fought bravely but were no match for elven heavy cavalry. A few still remained though.

    Outcasts - Turn 5

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    Slayers are still fighting!

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    Elves slow down and shoot

    Elven regiments, not seeing any opening in the tight Dwarven battle line, slow down and let the missiles speak. Thunderers suffer again and Runesmith is escorted towards Hammerers block where his safety could be ensured.

    There were still few Slayers standing, their smaller number being an advantage when not all of the elven knights could land a blow.

    Dwarves - Turn 6

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    Just an adjustment of formation really

    Dwarves keep unmovable. Longbeards charge the eagle and simply reform to the previous position. With almost no shooting left that was all the Dwarves could do apart from waiting for the Elves and letting them decide, to fight or not to fight.

    Outcasts - Turn 6

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    The passage is clear

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    Lions accept the challenge!

    The path through the Pass was wide enough for the Outcasts to move through so there was no need for any more blood shed. Elves made sure only that no shooters remained in the Dwarven army so that they could move freely unmolested. Only regiment of Lions accepted the challenge of the Hammerers and kept them busy for long enough for the rest of the elven force to move safely towards their destination.

    The objective was achieved, mission accomplished and yet another chapter was added to Dwarven records.

    After-battle thoughts

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    I was obviously very happy with the victory as fighting against Dwarves is never easy, even more so in the Battle for the Pass. It was even sweeter to do so with very little casualties! On top of that I received a bonus due to Swedish composition difference and we ended up with 17-3 victory for High Elves!

    I must admit that Jason made some mistakes that allowed for my victory or made it a bigger one. First of all his war machines were too exposed. Organ Gun was too close and Grudge Thrower was too isolated to survive long. The fact the Iceshard Blizzard made the Organ Gun silent for one turn only emphasised that.

    Dwarven formation does not have to be so static either. Both Thunderers and Hammerers could move forward more decisively as their flank was nicely protected. The advantage of the narrower frontage of the battle for the pass.

    On the other hand Slayers blocked the flank for long enough to stop my units from outflanking the army. Combined with slower than required approach of the infantry and I was in no position to even think about any attack.

    I am sure I could have played better as it is possible to reach Dwarven lines in 3 turns but I simply didn't move coherently enough to make it happen. Narrower deployment didn't help and played a role in that but while it explains a lot it is not an excuse! Still need to work on the way I should approach defensively playing opponent.

    Last but not least I wanted to mention that Larry had a few miscasts this game (3 or 4) that allowed me to get some spells through. Apart from occasional fireworks and eventual loss of the magic levels, he did well as he helped destroying the cannon and thunderers and in the end survived the battle!

    I hope you enjoyed the game that featured my last encounter with Dwarves of old!

    Thanks for reading!

  • Hi,

    I think the dwarfen player was too static. If he had moved some inches and kept his lines together there should have been no possible charge for the high elves without getting counters. Loosing the artillery was not good but I was happy to see a dwarfen game without casteling. Nevertheless, well played by high elves.

    Universal Battle: Aemkei81

    9k Druchii
    8k Khemri

  • Hi Aem_Kei,

    Thanks for your comment! I am assuming you are talking about the game 7 as I played against Dwarves twice. Indeed, my opponent was quite static but after battle chat revealed it was his first experience with MSU force as an enemy. While he was not particularly concerned with any of my units attacking from the front he didn't quite know how to earn points. I think you are correct that he could have moved forward at some stage and put a little bit of pressure on my units. In particular in battle for the pass scenario that does not allow me to move on the flanks that freely.

    I am sure new Dwarves would have some more dynamic elements to do so!

    Cheers!

  • Great game! Iam also talking about the last game vs dwarves :)

    At the beginning i was curious how you gonna deal with the big blocks as i thought your little units maybe were to fragil. But i think i underestimated the elves.
    Iam quite unexperienced but at the moment im thinking about how a warriors of chaos MSU army could (or could) look like.

    Thanks so far for letting us know how the elven army concept works! Keep up the good work.

    Greetings Markus

    Gemeinschaftsblog
    Einserpasch
    Gemeinschaftsprojekt. Zu sehen sind:
    Zwerge
    Krieger des Chaos
    Orks und Goblins, Imperium
    Echsenmenschen

  • Hi guys!

    Thanks for comments!

    @ Limbomann

    I didn't get his main units in the end due to lack of time but in general I have the tools for the job. It can be bloody business though so you have to be very careful how and when you commit your regiments as after the fight they might be too weak to continue. But that is also the beauty of MSU where such actions are nicely rewarded so it pays off to keep trying!

    I believe any army can have their version of MSU and Warriors of Chaos definitely have the tools for the job. I actually have seen them in action and they have multiple options to choose from. The main difference between WoC and HE for example is that usually Warriors make up for the lack of shooting with more powerful characters. You can choose between well armoured sorcerers and blast the enemy with magic or multiple fighting hero level guys, who are very fast and can perform many different duties.

    @ arnadil

    I am happy to learn you are going to take your MSU army to the tournament! I had a look at it but in order to comment better I need to know a little bit more about the event. Do you play scenarios? Is there any composition at play? Also, while I can use google for translation in order to avoid confusion, could you provide English version of your army list? I am mainly talking about the magic items as they may be a little misleading in terms of names. When is the tournament going to take place?

    Cheers!

  • I wanted to take my High Elves to the tournament, but I still don't have some necessary units. So for the next tournament it is going to be the WoC.
    I just tested them online against a very good player (australian ETC player) and I was a horrible defeat. ;( Obviously I have to make changes in my list and playing.

    Here is the list for this game. It was ETC, so it is only 2400 points. In the tournament it is going to be 2500 points with German restriction (Combat8), that do not effect my army in this concept.

    1 Lord: 395 Pts. 16.4%
    1 Hero: 210 Pts. 8.7%
    8 Core Units: 830 Pts. 34.5%
    5 Elite Units: 965 Pts. 40.2%
    0 Rare Unit


    Chaos Sorcerer Lord, General, lvl4, Mark of Slaanesh, Lore of Shadows, Chaos Familiar, Scaled Skin, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield, Steed of Slaanesh - 395 Pts.

    Exalted Hero, Mark of Slaanesh, Sword of Striking, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, BSB, Steed of Slaanesh - 210 Pts.

    10 Chaos Warriors, Mark of Slaanesh, 2xHw, M, C - 190 Pts.
    10 Chaos Warriors, Mark of Slaanesh, 2xHw, M, C - 190 Pts.
    5 Chaos Warhounds - 30 Pts.
    5 Chaos Warhounds - 30 Pts.
    5 Marauder Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh, Throwing Axes - 85 Pts.
    5 Marauder Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh, Throwing Axes - 85 Pts.
    Chaos Chariot - 110 Pts.
    Chaos Chariot - 110 Pts.

    5 Hellstriders of Slaanesh, M - 105 Pts.
    5 Hellstriders of Slaanesh, M - 105 Pts.
    5 Chaos Knights, Mark of Slaanesh, Ensorcelled Weapons, M, S, C, Std. of Eternal Flame - 260 Pts.
    5 Chaos Knights, Mark of Slaanesh, Ensorcelled Weapons, M, S, C - 250 Pts.
    5 Chaos Knights, Mark of Slaanesh, Lances, M, S, C - 245 Pts.

    Total: 2400


    To your questions: As far as I know, scenarios are played. I don't know, what you mean with "composition".

    My thoughts how to change the list:
    - Maybe make the characters heavier (Mage on Disc, Lore of Tzeentch, maybe another Hero)
    - Add a Chimera and maybe a Dragon Oger Shaggoth
    - Maybe change additional handweapons to halberds
    - Use other marks. I thought, that it could be nice to play a slaanesh army, but it is weaker than with nurgle or tzeentch marks on charriots or knights for example.

  • Hi amadil,

    My apologies for delay in replying.

    I am sorry to hear that you were defeated but I would not be disheartened. Also, I always start with analysing the battle before I even consider some changes. I would be very grateful if you provided some more information on the following:

    1. What army did you play against? I also know some of the Australian players and I am familiar with their current ETC team so let me know who did you play against too! Knowing the person sometimes helps a little as well :)

    2. Could you give a brief "report" on the battle? Nothing too elaborate but what was your plan, what did go wrong, what worked too etc.

    3. What models do you have available for your army? No need to tell you to take something you don't have if we come to the conclusion it might be good to have it!

    As to your current army list I am curious about some of your choices:

    1. Lore of Shadow vs Lore of Slaanesh - what did make you choose one over another? I think lore of Slaanesh is great as it has a way to mess up your opponents movement. Very important, indirect and more subtle.

    2. 2HW on Warriors - Personally I would take halberds as with WS5 and 2A each they have already quite a number of attacks. While S5 is much needed improvement than S4. You want your units to be able to grind through some armour too.

    3. You have 8 support units, that is quite a lot. Do you think you need that many? Chariots are great of course but I wonder if there is a need for as many fast units.

    4. Banner of Eternal Flame does not affect magical attacks so I would shift it to lance armed knights.

    By composition I meant special rules and you mentioned something about Combat that is used in Germany but does not affect your army. It is important to take that into account as sometimes certain composition rules provide extra bonuses or penalties. I am not familiar with Combat system so I leave it to you to see if you can be affected further :)

    Scenarios are important. Are they rulebook scenarios or modified/original ones? For example, if you are going to play Blood and Glory having more banners may be important. If you play some version of Watchtower then the regiment that can garrison it or assault it is also important to have. Because of that it may be even worth considering making your warriors a little bigger.

    Cheers!

  • Hey, thanks for your answer and no problem for there was no delay. I wasn't thinking, that you are reading and answering here every day. ;)

    So, let me try to answer to some of your questions. The other answers will follow when having enough time:

    My opponent called himself Orion76 at the UniversalBattle website. We played a lizardmen army with millions of skinks with javelins. The whole core units were skinks. Additionaly he had a big block of templeguard with a High Magic Slann, a salamander, 3 teradons and 3 (!) mounted and well protected Scar vets. (I read afterwards, that he was not allowed to play three of them in a ETC game, but I think it was of vrey little importance, so this is irrelevant.)

    My inital plan was to get rid of the skinks very quickly with my knights, because I was worried about the poison attacks against my infantry and fast cav. Afterards I wanted to attack the templeguard with everything that is left. He deployed very broad, so I changed my plan a bit: I did not want my knights to have such a long distance to go before joining the big fight in the middle. So on the left flank I used two of my fast cav units, which I wasn't sure how to use against such an army either way, to distract the skinks there with a sacrifice - just to make sure, that they cannot attack anything of worth before close combat. I had one knight unit there, too, but it wasn't able to do anything (I'll explain it below). On the other flank I could use my knights as planned, but I was diverted several times and needed one turn too long to come to fight.
    In the middle I had my warriors, charriots and one unit of knights. Problem was: I moved forward too agressively with my knights and my fast cav. Therefore the fast cav died very easily in the middle of all those skinks. Two of my knights units were attacked by scar vet in first turn. I thought that scar ve should get problems with strenght 5 chas knights, but it killed all my plan and game from the beginning on. Both units were depleted over time and had nothing against these fighting monsters and there protection. So I thought, I should help them and (in the middle) send one unit of my warriors and a charriot: He needed some turns, but this lonley scar vet killed them all (or made them flee). Strenght 4 was no help at all (I thought just the number of attacks and the impact hits might help.) and when my other knight unit was able to come in (first one with my BSB was killed already) I was aware, that I had only one turn to break him before his templeguard gets into combat. I knew, it was unlikely, but what else to do? I had only this kight unit and one unit of warriors (depleted by skinks) and that was not enough against a horde of templeguard, so I thought, I'd take my chance to get my other warriors out of this combat. He challenged, I lost, templeguard came in and I was killed to a man and surrendered.

    I made a lot of mistakes.
    - I underestemated skinks and scar vet against my units, although I am just planning a lizardmen army and do know there strenght.
    - My vanguard moves were stupid: I moved my units forward, knowing that they can't stand against the skinks. I could have moved less aggressively, but it was somehow related to the unknown tool and website, making me not want to look up every distance from every unit and so on. Additionaly he blocked on eof my vanguard moves with the teradons. That was a mistake, because I could havedone this too, but vanguarded another unit first. Not a big deal, but I am mad at me making such stupid mistakes.
    - I was so overwhelmed by all his skinks and simply forgot such basics.

    But there were also things that did not work out because of the army:
    - Fast cav was simply not good enough to scape the skinks for a while and there was not much to do with them instead.
    - The warriors were not able to kill the scar vet because of the low strenght. I have to take halberds next time, but building this army I thought that the kights handle everything that need high strenght and the warriors everything that is just dangerous because of the mere number.
    - Having no shooting and not the best magic (against a slann and without a dispel scoll) was horrible and sme how not my way of playing. (I like my magic and shooting with the high elves or my magic with the beastmen.)
    - I had nothing against good armour. S5 is simply not enough.
    - Mark of Slaanesh was not really as good as I thought. Problem was not taking LD-tests, but winnig a fight an Nurgle on the combat units might have helped better.


    I have a list of my models only in German, so I will post it later.

    My thoughts:
    - Lore of shadow: With my (not tournament suitable) highelf army it is great, because spell 2 and 3 do not buff my small units, but debuff an enemy unit and this is like buffing all my small units at once. Lore of Slaanesh on the other side seemed weaker to me and I did not see good synergies there, but I read it maybe twice and haven't thought about it that much, because I was not even considering it to be interesting. (Maybe I did wrong though.)
    - Additional hand weapons or halberds: See above. I thought that armour is something for my knights and mass is for my warriors. Additionaly small units with less supporting attacks from the back seemed to me a good reason to have as many attacks as possible in the front rank. Next time I will take halberds - at least for most of the warriors, maybe, if I will take three regiments, I can take one with additional weapons.
    - Support units: Not sure. The dogs are mainly to block shooting. Then there are four units of fast cav to kill other fast cav and warmaschines and divert opponents. The charrots are supporting, but also good in close combat. So they do have different main tasks, although they are mulit-purpose.

    I will write more on it next time - the post is long enough already ;) Thanks again!

  • Skink skirmishers are a terribly strong and versatile core unit. To fill the core points however, means he needs ~90 skink skirmishers, which further means around 30 of those in a unit. (Max 3 times the same unit choice allowed) He can however also only have 53 of them, given he has no other shooting whatsoever. So that list was likely illegal(for good reason), if his core really was only skinks. He needs even more, if it is skink cohorts, so the shooting limit would also make that illegal. They are also less moveable and could possibly be avoided or surrounded.
    Big skink units on the flanks (thats where the skirmishers usually go) can be broken easily though. You need to attack with two units, in case the first one gets killed by stand and shoot. If they flee, they might not come back to the fight without BSB and General in range. Otherwise probably loose the close combat, since the skirmishers have no ranks to be steadfast if not in a forest.

    You need to be patient with your fast cavallery and wait for the right moment to run past the enemy short range (12") shooting or to attack.

    With Slann (counts as 6) and 3 heros (count as 6) he can only have 28 templeguard. The lizardman heroes are possibly the strongest fighting heroes for their cost (possibly due to low initiative) with 4(!) S5 Attacks in the profile alone and T5 too.

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  • Thanks, Alandil, for your comment!
    I don't know, if my ETC rule document is complete and up to date and where to find these restrictions.

    I think his core looked like this (exactly 600 points = 25%):

    4 x 10 Skink skirmishers, javelins
    - - - > 4x 70 points = 280 points

    2x 20 Skinks, Full command
    - - - > 2x 130 Points = 260 points

    10 Skinks, Musician
    - - - > 60 Points

    His templeguard unit was bigger than 28, I think. But I don't know exactly how many with the slann.

    The skirmishers were on the flanks and redirected my units. Next to the centre and in the position, that I was not able to attack because of the redirecters (and because my units where bound by the scar vets).

  • I was under the impression you were playing Combat 8, (because your lists on the ealier posts were for C8 ) but:

    Last I checked ETC also had the "max. 3 times the same unit" restriction, which would make 4x skirmishers impossible,
    however only a shooting cap for long range weapons (20" or 24" I think) so it might not be too far off what is allowed. Could also have changed until now, I did not play ETC in a while ;)

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  • Ah okay. Yeah, my list for the upcoming tournament needs to be built after Combat8, but in this game it was not. Sorry for the confusion!

    But whatever - I am not concerned about his list, although I think it ws not the best matchup for me. I just want my list either to be competitive enough for a tournament or recognize it in time and take something different; by now, I am thinking about asking the organizers to change my registration to Beastmen. But maybe I change my mind, discussing the options here and in the German thread, where have already been provided some good thoughts on Chaos MSU.


    Coming back to the questions, Swordmaster asked:
    According to the Combat8 rules there are no Rulebook scenarios and even more buildings cannot be entered by units. I am not entirely sure, that there are no other special scenarios coming up (for it is my first tournament), but I don't think so.


    Finally a quick overview about my models for the WoC. I have to mention, that I can make smaller expansions (one monster, 10 Chosen, a Warshrine or something like this), if I am convinced by another army concept/list. So we can take it into account, if there is something of high importance missing. But, because the Warriors are not my favorite army and I am expanding my Highelves and getting some Lizardmen for my collection, I do not want to buy a whole lot.

    • 40 Warriors of Chaos
    • 20 Forsaken
    • 2 Chariots
    • 40 Chaos Marauders
    • 10 Marauder Horsemen
    • 1 Hellcannon
    • 13 Hellstriders
    • 25 Warhounds
    • 3 Dragon Ogres
    • 20 Chaos Knights
    • 7 Chaos Ogres
    • 4 Chaos Trolls
    • 1 Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
    • 2 Giants
    • 2 Chaos Spawns
    • Quite a lot of heroes, mages and so on foot and on different mounts (Tzeentch disk, Slaanesh steed, daemonic steed and so on)
    • Chaos Lord on Dragon
    • 2 Demon Princes

    What I don't like is Skullcrushers because of being frenzy and not looking nice. So I can substitute them in fun games, but I don't think, that I want to buy them.
    I hope, that I did not forget anything. Can't tell, how grateful I am, that there are so many people here, helping with these questions in such a great way!

  • hi there!

    Thanks for the answers!

    I know the guy but I have never played him and don't know him well so I can't tell you what he likes to take and how he likes to play. He is ETC -player and in itself it tells you that he is all about army list building. My impression about majority of ETC players I have met is that they put a lot of effort in getting as powerful army lists as possible under the players pack. What is important for you is that you have to assume you will play against a tough army and against an opponent who knows how to use it. It also may contain some tricks that are not that obvious for a casual player and they will use that advantage to the fullest. You will have tough games and rarely they will tell you more about how to improve your skills. They certainly prefer telling you to take certain lists, whatever is hot for ETC rules at the moment. They are simply hardcore players and they don't like sharing their secrets in particular when they train for the tournament.

    The good news is that first, it will be harsh but valuable lesson. And second, that it does not have to be that bad every time. You may have positioned the bar high for your first games but don't get discouraged.

    It was also a tough match up for any MSU force as amount of shooting is really huge and with all the poisonous attacks you are going to suffer a lot. You identified various mistakes which is great because you know what to improve. For example, vanguarding forward and having units obliterated was not a good idea. It is worth remembering that sometimes vanguard back is as good (if not better) idea as any.

    Many small units in the case of the enemy was also a problem for your army as you could not easily outdeploy them and he was willing to sacrifice them as long as he killed your units in the process. How the deployment looked like? Did you deploy as forward as possible? Did both of you spread the armies along the whole battle field?

    Sometimes it may be worthy trying the tactics that works against MSU itself. You see, I have noticed that people started deploying on one flank, leaning against the edge if possible. That prevented outflanking and had local superiority as a lot of my units were further away. It might be the case here. Deploy on one flank, maybe even in two lines to prevent skinks from targeting softer units and move forward.

    His Veterans are a problem and that is why you need at least S5 if not 6 to try and destroy them. They are incredibly resilient but you have tools for the job. Allowing them to tie some of your regiments and even adding more to combat was not helping and with coldblood and good Ld they didn't go anywhere. You need to find a way to contain them. I agree with the assessment that S4 warriors are not enough. I would go for halberds any time since they are more versatile. Think about some high S attacks provided by other models in the army. Maybe Chimera or Shagoth or magic. Chaos does not have the luxury of shooting to soften up the enemy so you have to make up for it with combat. You are good there but you have to make each attack count.

    I think you should try to come up with the list that has more high S attacks and give it a go at a tournament. Don't be afraid to try. It may be deifficult as you still need to learn how units cooperate with each other but it is worthy. Even if eventually you may conclude that MSU is not what you like you will learn to use movement phase much better.

    It seems that some kind of anti armour tools are required for any list. You have the models. Trolls, Dragon Ogres, Shagoth are all quite good in that department, although each comes with their own set of strengths and weaknesses and that has to be taken into account.

    Not being good at army list building myself (I always prefer talking about tactics and particular games :)) here is the list my friend Hinge took to US Masters this year and he did pretty good. It is not "pure" MSU as it has only 11 drops but he is extremely good in movement phase and that may also give you some ideas how the list can look like (along with his comments):

    It is of course just a reference so feel free to tear it apart in the way you want to. But I would trust my friend as he is a very experienced player and frequent tournament goer as well as unorthodox gamer sometimes.

    Don't give up and keep working on the list and your gaming skills. As long as you enjoy learning how to play better all is good!

    Cheers!

  • Hey, sorry for answering that late.
    Your comments on the ETC players really helped to overcome my crisis with the concept and my Warriors of Chaos. That is not the way, I want to play - neither in private nor at usual tournaments. And if I had known that he was such a good player with such an optimized army, probably I would not have chosen him to play against as a first test. And your notice, that it is all about optimizing lists, was exactly what happend afterwards with some other players there. It was interesting, but not entirely my world and way of playing the game.

    Nevertheless - thanks to the advice in this forum - the new list I built should be heavier, I guess.
    I added a chimera, a disc hero and a hellcannon, took other marks (especially Nurgle) and omit some fast and light units. The mage is going to use the lore of death, because of the reducting of LD in combination with the hellcannon (and because he cannot take lore of Slaanesh or Tzeentch, when he wants to join the warriors with mark of Nurgle). It has not that many drops, but I like it and think, that it is worth it.

    So that is somehow the result and I will tell you, how it worked out at the tournament. Thanks again!

  • Hi amadil,

    I didn't want to sound harsh when I talked about ETC players I met. Some of them are great guys and very good players and you can learn a lot from them. However, they are indeed leaning towards efficiency and background or theme is of less importance. Or, as some of them joked "winning" is their theme :) It does not mean they might cheat on you. They simply assume that the opposing player knows the rules as well as they do and if they are going to spot a mistake in your plan, they will exploit it.

    So there is nothing wrong, in general, in playing against ETC player. They may simply be more focused on this particular settings as they use each game as an opportunity to practice and for them, every victory point counts. Once you are over it and don't worry about this more competitive attitude it will be all good. Also, Australian players tend be more easy going too. I don't know Orion though, so I can;t tell how is he at the gaming table.

    As to your army I am looking forward to some stories from your tournament! I keep fingers crossed for you and I hope you will have lots of fun with your army!

  • Greetings!

    Game 8 - Michael - High Elves - Battle Line

    Last game of CanCon! With High Elves being the most numerous of the armies it was difficult to avoid a civil war. I evaded them whole tournament but finally had to face them. However, the great thing was I was about to play against Michael, our own Darth Sabre! It is always great fun to meet another forum member in real life and what is more, we had a score to settle too! I had a pleasure to play against Michael 2 years ago at my first CanCon. Back then I was just beginning my journey with MSU and was lucky enough to win. I was sure Michael was very eager to even the score! :)

    Any time I play against another HE army it is very special encounter. In games like that we counter our strengths in a unique way only so called mirror matches can. However, every time I played against HE it was never the force that fought in similar fashion to mine. That is always a great thing as it feels more like playing against a force with its own army book!

    It was indeed the case this time as well. Michael commanded the following army (thanks for the army list details, Michael!):

    High Elves - Army List

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    Prince, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Giant Blade, Enchanted Shield, Dawnstone

    Loremaster of Hoeth, Charmed Shield, Staff of Sorcery, Talisman of Preservation

    BSB, Barded Steed, Dragon Armour, Shield, Star Lance, Dragon Helm, Luckstone

    Mage, Level 2, Elven Steed, Dispel Scroll, Golden Crown of Atrazar - Lore of the Beasts

    15Archers, Standard, Musican
    5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musican
    5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musican
    10 Silver Helms, Shields, Full Command

    8 Dragon Princes, Full Command
    18 White Lions, Banner of Eternal Flame

    12 Sisters of Avelon
    Great Eagle
    Bolt Thrower
    Bolt Thrower

    Prince - 1+ armour with re-rolls as a good defensive kit and mighty Giant Blade for S7 attacks. This guy surely inflicts damage and can turn the combat into his favour. As he is going with a unit of knights as bodyguards it would be difficult to single him out as all my high S units are infantry and would strike after him and his regiment. So there is a chance that even if attacked they would wipe out the unit entirely. But at the same time he is sensitive to no save attacks and he will not travel alone so he can be harmed with magic and diverted from more juicy targets.

    Loremaster - I know this character very well although his equipment is different. The shield cannot be used in combat and I know from experience that 4++ ward as main protection tends to fail if forced to be used often enough. Even S3 attacks have a chance then.

    BSB - together with the Prince they make the knights they join a very powerful hammer of a unit. He is not as well protected, although part of the protection is being with the Prince and his unit. Of course there is an option to divide the characters among both knightly regiments but I thought they would go together.

    Mage - his presence was to make the cavalry hammer even more formidable with Wyssans Wildform and if lucky with Savage Beasts of Horrors spells. With full command and 2 characters in the unit he would enjoy protection of second rank.

    Archers - very good long range support. Very dangerous to my small and fragile infantry and light support troops.

    Reavers - one of my priorities to eliminate and I noticed these guys are without bows that put my own light cavalry at slight advantage.

    Silver Helms - at such strength they would be a threat to my elite infantry. With 10 re-rollable S5 attacks they are capable of inflicting significant damage. It is risky for them too but they can either support other regiments or go for exchange if the situation demands it.

    White Lions - the fact they are with flaming attacks makes them perfect target for Dragon Princes. Swordmasters too can go head on and win against them due to higher WS and more attacks. But that would work only if I could isolate them.

    Sisters - single unit and more all together. Very good support but I planned to use their shorter range against them and use my own Archers, if possible, to win the shooting match. Another priority as their S4 and BS 5 means trouble for units such as reavers or Swordmasters.

    Bolt throwers - always a problem and something I would need to deal with quickly. Otherwise their presence makes it more difficult for cavalry to manoeuvre and in the case of reavers - survive.

    Great Eagle - another fast regiment that needs to be dealt with quickly simply because I need to have clear path for attack and manoeuvre.

    Michael's army had much better tools for direct charge, no single unit in my army would survive that attack. Despite 2 bolt throwers I felt I had better shooting abilities but I also needed to focus them on different targets.

    My plan was then as follows. Use eagles to divert the cavalry hammer and slow it down for as long as possible. In the meantime, use shooting to eliminate reavers, eagle and sisters (depending on how these units are deployed and how easy it is to get to them). Move my own combat troops on the opposite side to the hammer to get to other enemy regiments. If possible, use Dragon Princes against Lions in particular.

    Duel of Loremasters would be very interesting for sure!

    Deployment

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    Mandatory blurry picture! :(

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    Armies after vanguards

    Michael deployed with refused flank and that was a smart move against MSU. It was clear he wanted to use his cavalry hammer both as attacking force on the flank but also to block any attempt to move against his bolt thrower and Archers on the hill. Very good because he can move aggressively while shooting without blocking his own line of sight.

    Silver Helms were deployed as a unit to guard the flank and Lions were the element that joined two knightly regiments, being able to help both if needed and occupying very good, central position of the army formation.

    It was hard to breach that formation or at least it looked like it to me and I decided to go for a full swing on my left in order to bring more units against Silver Helms while taking away bolt thrower, reavers and sisters on the way. If that worked I would be in a good position to surround lions and maybe get to second bolt thrower while keeping cavalry hammer away.

    Before we started level 2 wizard got the following spells: Wildform, Curse

    Michael aka Darth Sabre won the roll off and his cavalry spurred their steeds to charge the Outcasts as soon as possible!

    High Elves - Turn 1

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    The cavalry gallop shook the ground - hence another blurry picture :oops:

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    Cavalry Prince leads by example

    The cavalry prince ordered his knightly bodyguard to advance at a double and let the foot sloggers to worry about catching up all by themselves. Lions picked up the pace but Silver Helms stayed to guard the flank.

    Sisters and Bolt Throwers picked their targets but only a few of the Avelorn maids from the ranks of the Outcasts fell.

    Outcasts - Turn 1

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    Slightly better focus, I think ...

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    Rapid movement on both flanks

    Outcasts moved in a hurry in order to steal the initiative. Fast support blocked impetuous prince while the units on the other flank advanced quickly. The mental duel between the Loremasters resulted in Miasma cast on the bolt thrower to decrease its efficiency but other than that no spells managed to go through yet.

    Almost all missile troops focused on the enemy Sisters and only 3 of them survived that type of attention. Only on the left flank reavers aimed at their bowless counterparts and unhorsed one rider.

    High Elves - Turn 2

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    Attack on the right flank

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    Seizing the opportunity to get rod of the enemy fast cavalry!

    Cavalry prince spotted the opportunity and expertly pivoted past the eagle (Edit: Apologies for inaccurate diagram in the previous turn, I made a mistake and the unit could wheel past the eagle ). The charge was precise and even swift reavers were not fast enough to avoid it and were destroyed while trying to flee. That also opened the path for the fast cavalry that attacked the eagle. But noble bird of prey stood its ground and despite being wounded, took one of the attackers down too.

    On the other flank another regiment of fast cavalry charged their adversaries but accurate bow fire made them change their mind and they swiftly turned and attempted to avoid the confrontation.

    Sisters of Averlorn one more time were the target of the missile fire but a few of them still remained.

    Outcasts - Turn 2

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    Outcasts press forward

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    Left flank secured, centre under control too

    The regiments on the left moved forward at a double. Only reavers chased away enemy fast cavalry so that it is not a problem later on.

    Few remaining enemy Sisters were finished but other than that shooting was not impressive. It was partially due to the fact that Sea Guard and Archers moved too.

    Brave eagle was finally defeated but again it took a reaver with it.

    High Elves - Turn 3

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    Right flank is lost though

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    Charges!

    Cavalry Prince and his knights easily removed a single figure that stood in their way and reformed to face new enemy. White Lions and Reavers challenged Sea Guard but they didn't feel that combat is at good odds for them and withdrew.

    Both bolt throwers opened fire. Left one aimed at Swordmasters and killed a few while the one on the hill used the opportunity and shot at the exposed flank of the reckless enemy cavalry, unhorsing three of the knights. Survivors held with grim determination though.

    The Loremasters could not quite gain a significant advantage over each other and this time Iceshard blizzard (Edit: I think!)
    was cast on Archers

    Outcasts - Turn 3

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    Battle for the Pass?

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    One bolt thrower down, one to go!

    Dragon Princes wasted no time and destroyed bolt thrower crew. One war machine down, one to go. Lions and Swordmasters tried to position themselves so that Silver Helms could not possible charge past any of them but at the same time wanted to keep the pressure on.

    Other regiments also moved and reformed so that both armies started to face each other as if fighting in the mountain pass.

  • High Elves - Turn 4

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    Walking forests again!

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    Nobody wants to fight against the Prince!

    Yet another attempt to charge any enemy failed. Archers and Sea Guard didn't fancy facing cavalry charge in the open and retreated. Frustrated Prince had to try again later.

    In the meantime, Loremaster fooled Larry with some mental distraction and cast a spell on his own unit of White Lions. That made nearby trees nervous and they simply walked away towards the formation of Outcasts.

    That allowed him to cast a powerful Fireball against enemy Swordmasters protecting enemy BSB and many of them perished. The survivors held their ground and continued their duty.

    Outcasts - Turn 4

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    Getting closer!

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    Oops! Forgot to change the arrow colour, DP were not charging! Sorry!

    Outcasts kept pressing forward and fast units in particular positioned themselves so that they could attempt an attack on the fire base of the enemy army.

    Swordmasters and BSB destroyed annoying eagle and overrun to safety. A few remaining Sisters provided yet another distraction so that enemy cavalry still has no juicy target to attack.

    Finally, eagle claw crew aimed carefully at exposed flank of the Silver Helms who made a similar mistake as Dragon Princes before. Four knights lied dead, skewered by the enormous bolt and the rest decided to move away from such a powerful war machine and its well trained crew!

    High Elves - Turn 5

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    Switching the sides

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    Last charge

    It was clear that the battle reached the stage where not much could have been achieved any more. Cavalry charged the Sisters but it was hardly an achievement for proud knights. Loremaster this time could not help either and even bolt thrower and archers could not finish the eagle.

    Silver Helms rallied though and blocked the path for the reavers.

    Outcasts - Turn 5

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    Last attacks

    Dragon Princes noticed that enemy Silver Helms exposed their flank again and charge in, breaking young knights and chasing them off the battle field. Great Eagle had a chance for revenge but its wounds were too deep and it was not fast enough to reach the bolt thrower.

    Finally, Larry the Loremaster broke the magical defences of his counter part and focused his mind on the Prince. He aimed to destroy his spirit and almost succeeded. Seeing their leader swaying in the saddle and barely alive, the bodyguards disengaged and the enemy army withdrew.

    The battle was not properly resolved but Outcasts walked away with the most minor of the victories.

    After-battle thoughts

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    Last game of the tournament was definitely interesting. A pity we didn't have enough time to play 6th round as a few interesting things might have had happened. It was great to meet Michael/Darth again and try to match the speed of his cavalry hammer! It was very close game and I was lucky to win 11-9.

    First things first though: Michael, it was great to play against you again, I am sure next time you will get me! :) It is always a pleasure to chat with you and the games are always interesting! Cheers! =D>

    Civil wars are always interesting because you can easily look at both sides and start wondering about the possible outcomes from the point of view of both forces. After all you play the same army!

    I really liked how Michael reinforced his flank and had fragile shooters behind the main line. I think he would have done even better if he pressed harder with all 3 combat units at the same time and maybe even deploy his both bolt throwers on the hill. He nicely spotted the opening I created by mistake and instead of being delayed he killed my reavers. I think, however, that he might have forgotten about possibility of reforming after catching the fleeing regiment. That would have put his cavalry hammer in more threatening position. His reavers on my left were also a little bit wasted and I liked that example also because it shows that it pays off to give reavers bows as it matters in the war between support units.

    Michael also nicely delayed my advance with single Silver Helms unit and I think I simply should have been more aggressive. If not for unlucky panic then we would have a draw.

    On my own I must say I didn't use my assets well. I simply assumed I cannot defeat Michaels Dargon Princes with 3 characters in it. So I avoided the unit. It only makes sense if I use the fast troops to delay such regiment and use the time they buy to destroy the rest of the army. I didn't and that meant I didn't get many points.

    I didn't deploy well as Sisters blocked the advance a little. Having BSB with Swordmasters yet again slowed them down as I wanted to move and shoot instead of advancing rapidly. In this game I had tools to confront the enemy units head on. For example, I could send a unit of Swordmasters against White Lions and cripple them. Even at a cost of Swordmaster unit it was worthy as I had more regiments and could reinforce them or avenge them later. In fact, I was in position to threaten Lions with Swordmasters and Dragon Princes as well as Sea Guard but I moved too fast forward (trying to avoid the cavalry bus). If I kept second eagle nearby instead of using it to hunt bolt thrower (which was threatened by enough regiments already) I would have had a chance to do so.

    I tried to move Lions and Swordmasters so that they helped each other if any of the regiments were attacked by Silver Helms. I think I didn't do it well. Again, they were slowed down and probably positioned too far away. This game also showed that I may lack speed if I position the regiments too far away and when the enemy does not want to fight.

    I am happy with the shooting phase as it allowed me to eliminate dangerous Sisters and win the war of support units. I got both reaver units with shooting too.

    The magic duel between Loremasters was great. But it also meant many spells were not going through. I cannot recall now if it was because the winds of magic were not strong. Michael had even more spells to choose from and I could see how much he needed power dice. I think I had one Searing Doom through on Silver Helms but of course I had to roll something like 1 for number of hits. :) I was happy I managed to get Spirit Leach turn 5. I needed a very good roll and Michael had to roll poor to get the Prince in one go but it was not to be and I got "only" 2 wounds. So close! :)

    That would be the last report from CanCon 2014! Summary will follow!


    Thanks for reading!