MSU-Battle-Reports (English)

  • Dwarves - Turn 4



    Outcasts - Turn 4



    Dwarves - Turn 5



    Outcasts - Turn 5



    Dwarves - Turn 6



    Outcasts - Turn 6



    After-battle thoughts


  • Greetings!


    Game 7 - Jason - Dwarves - Battle for the Pass


    Another game of CanCon, this time Battle for the Pass and ... another Dwarven army to fight against :) This time I had a great pleasure to play against Jason and his great looking army.


    Playing against a defensive force in the battle for the pass is always a challenge. First, the distance usually is greater than in the normal Battle line scenario. Second, such armies tend to sport some good shooting units and that means that whatever makes to the other side of the pass might not be of any significant combat value. And third, narrower frontage meant it was way harder for me to outflank the enemy.


    Technically, one could play defensively too and simply stay put. Some of the shooting elements do not have that long range and these that do may not be sufficient to kill enough of your forces to get many victory points on their own. Of course there are exceptions. But that would have made for a dull and boring game.


    As you could have already noticed from the picture above, Jason's army was not gunline type that gave me some hope.


    Dwarves - Army List



    Deployment



    Dwarves - Turn 1



    Outcasts - Turn 1



    Dwarves - Turn 2



    Outcasts - Turn 2



    Dwarves - Turn 3



    Outcasts - Turn 3


  • Dwarves - Turn 4



    Outcasts - Turn 4



    Dwarves - Turn 5



    Outcasts - Turn 5



    Dwarves - Turn 6



    Outcasts - Turn 6



    After-battle thoughts


  • Hi,


    I think the dwarfen player was too static. If he had moved some inches and kept his lines together there should have been no possible charge for the high elves without getting counters. Loosing the artillery was not good but I was happy to see a dwarfen game without casteling. Nevertheless, well played by high elves.

    Universal Battle: Aemkei81


    9k Druchii
    8k Khemri

  • Hi Aem_Kei,


    Thanks for your comment! I am assuming you are talking about the game 7 as I played against Dwarves twice. Indeed, my opponent was quite static but after battle chat revealed it was his first experience with MSU force as an enemy. While he was not particularly concerned with any of my units attacking from the front he didn't quite know how to earn points. I think you are correct that he could have moved forward at some stage and put a little bit of pressure on my units. In particular in battle for the pass scenario that does not allow me to move on the flanks that freely.


    I am sure new Dwarves would have some more dynamic elements to do so!


    Cheers!

  • Great game! Iam also talking about the last game vs dwarves :)


    At the beginning i was curious how you gonna deal with the big blocks as i thought your little units maybe were to fragil. But i think i underestimated the elves.
    Iam quite unexperienced but at the moment im thinking about how a warriors of chaos MSU army could (or could) look like.


    Thanks so far for letting us know how the elven army concept works! Keep up the good work.


    Greetings Markus

    Gemeinschaftsblog
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    Orks und Goblins, Imperium
    Echsenmenschen

  • Hi guys!


    Thanks for comments!


    @ Limbomann


    I didn't get his main units in the end due to lack of time but in general I have the tools for the job. It can be bloody business though so you have to be very careful how and when you commit your regiments as after the fight they might be too weak to continue. But that is also the beauty of MSU where such actions are nicely rewarded so it pays off to keep trying!


    I believe any army can have their version of MSU and Warriors of Chaos definitely have the tools for the job. I actually have seen them in action and they have multiple options to choose from. The main difference between WoC and HE for example is that usually Warriors make up for the lack of shooting with more powerful characters. You can choose between well armoured sorcerers and blast the enemy with magic or multiple fighting hero level guys, who are very fast and can perform many different duties.


    @ arnadil


    I am happy to learn you are going to take your MSU army to the tournament! I had a look at it but in order to comment better I need to know a little bit more about the event. Do you play scenarios? Is there any composition at play? Also, while I can use google for translation in order to avoid confusion, could you provide English version of your army list? I am mainly talking about the magic items as they may be a little misleading in terms of names. When is the tournament going to take place?


    Cheers!

  • I wanted to take my High Elves to the tournament, but I still don't have some necessary units. So for the next tournament it is going to be the WoC.
    I just tested them online against a very good player (australian ETC player) and I was a horrible defeat. ;( Obviously I have to make changes in my list and playing.


    Here is the list for this game. It was ETC, so it is only 2400 points. In the tournament it is going to be 2500 points with German restriction (Combat8), that do not effect my army in this concept.


    1 Lord: 395 Pts. 16.4%
    1 Hero: 210 Pts. 8.7%
    8 Core Units: 830 Pts. 34.5%
    5 Elite Units: 965 Pts. 40.2%
    0 Rare Unit



    Chaos Sorcerer Lord, General, lvl4, Mark of Slaanesh, Lore of Shadows, Chaos Familiar, Scaled Skin, Talisman of Preservation, Charmed Shield, Steed of Slaanesh - 395 Pts.


    Exalted Hero, Mark of Slaanesh, Sword of Striking, Dawnstone, Enchanted Shield, BSB, Steed of Slaanesh - 210 Pts.


    10 Chaos Warriors, Mark of Slaanesh, 2xHw, M, C - 190 Pts.
    10 Chaos Warriors, Mark of Slaanesh, 2xHw, M, C - 190 Pts.
    5 Chaos Warhounds - 30 Pts.
    5 Chaos Warhounds - 30 Pts.
    5 Marauder Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh, Throwing Axes - 85 Pts.
    5 Marauder Horsemen, Mark of Slaanesh, Throwing Axes - 85 Pts.
    Chaos Chariot - 110 Pts.
    Chaos Chariot - 110 Pts.


    5 Hellstriders of Slaanesh, M - 105 Pts.
    5 Hellstriders of Slaanesh, M - 105 Pts.
    5 Chaos Knights, Mark of Slaanesh, Ensorcelled Weapons, M, S, C, Std. of Eternal Flame - 260 Pts.
    5 Chaos Knights, Mark of Slaanesh, Ensorcelled Weapons, M, S, C - 250 Pts.
    5 Chaos Knights, Mark of Slaanesh, Lances, M, S, C - 245 Pts.


    Total: 2400



    To your questions: As far as I know, scenarios are played. I don't know, what you mean with "composition".


    My thoughts how to change the list:
    - Maybe make the characters heavier (Mage on Disc, Lore of Tzeentch, maybe another Hero)
    - Add a Chimera and maybe a Dragon Oger Shaggoth
    - Maybe change additional handweapons to halberds
    - Use other marks. I thought, that it could be nice to play a slaanesh army, but it is weaker than with nurgle or tzeentch marks on charriots or knights for example.

  • Hi amadil,


    My apologies for delay in replying.


    I am sorry to hear that you were defeated but I would not be disheartened. Also, I always start with analysing the battle before I even consider some changes. I would be very grateful if you provided some more information on the following:


    1. What army did you play against? I also know some of the Australian players and I am familiar with their current ETC team so let me know who did you play against too! Knowing the person sometimes helps a little as well :)


    2. Could you give a brief "report" on the battle? Nothing too elaborate but what was your plan, what did go wrong, what worked too etc.


    3. What models do you have available for your army? No need to tell you to take something you don't have if we come to the conclusion it might be good to have it!


    As to your current army list I am curious about some of your choices:


    1. Lore of Shadow vs Lore of Slaanesh - what did make you choose one over another? I think lore of Slaanesh is great as it has a way to mess up your opponents movement. Very important, indirect and more subtle.


    2. 2HW on Warriors - Personally I would take halberds as with WS5 and 2A each they have already quite a number of attacks. While S5 is much needed improvement than S4. You want your units to be able to grind through some armour too.


    3. You have 8 support units, that is quite a lot. Do you think you need that many? Chariots are great of course but I wonder if there is a need for as many fast units.


    4. Banner of Eternal Flame does not affect magical attacks so I would shift it to lance armed knights.


    By composition I meant special rules and you mentioned something about Combat that is used in Germany but does not affect your army. It is important to take that into account as sometimes certain composition rules provide extra bonuses or penalties. I am not familiar with Combat system so I leave it to you to see if you can be affected further :)


    Scenarios are important. Are they rulebook scenarios or modified/original ones? For example, if you are going to play Blood and Glory having more banners may be important. If you play some version of Watchtower then the regiment that can garrison it or assault it is also important to have. Because of that it may be even worth considering making your warriors a little bigger.


    Cheers!

  • Hey, thanks for your answer and no problem for there was no delay. I wasn't thinking, that you are reading and answering here every day. ;)


    So, let me try to answer to some of your questions. The other answers will follow when having enough time:


    My opponent called himself Orion76 at the UniversalBattle website. We played a lizardmen army with millions of skinks with javelins. The whole core units were skinks. Additionaly he had a big block of templeguard with a High Magic Slann, a salamander, 3 teradons and 3 (!) mounted and well protected Scar vets. (I read afterwards, that he was not allowed to play three of them in a ETC game, but I think it was of vrey little importance, so this is irrelevant.)


    My inital plan was to get rid of the skinks very quickly with my knights, because I was worried about the poison attacks against my infantry and fast cav. Afterards I wanted to attack the templeguard with everything that is left. He deployed very broad, so I changed my plan a bit: I did not want my knights to have such a long distance to go before joining the big fight in the middle. So on the left flank I used two of my fast cav units, which I wasn't sure how to use against such an army either way, to distract the skinks there with a sacrifice - just to make sure, that they cannot attack anything of worth before close combat. I had one knight unit there, too, but it wasn't able to do anything (I'll explain it below). On the other flank I could use my knights as planned, but I was diverted several times and needed one turn too long to come to fight.
    In the middle I had my warriors, charriots and one unit of knights. Problem was: I moved forward too agressively with my knights and my fast cav. Therefore the fast cav died very easily in the middle of all those skinks. Two of my knights units were attacked by scar vet in first turn. I thought that scar ve should get problems with strenght 5 chas knights, but it killed all my plan and game from the beginning on. Both units were depleted over time and had nothing against these fighting monsters and there protection. So I thought, I should help them and (in the middle) send one unit of my warriors and a charriot: He needed some turns, but this lonley scar vet killed them all (or made them flee). Strenght 4 was no help at all (I thought just the number of attacks and the impact hits might help.) and when my other knight unit was able to come in (first one with my BSB was killed already) I was aware, that I had only one turn to break him before his templeguard gets into combat. I knew, it was unlikely, but what else to do? I had only this kight unit and one unit of warriors (depleted by skinks) and that was not enough against a horde of templeguard, so I thought, I'd take my chance to get my other warriors out of this combat. He challenged, I lost, templeguard came in and I was killed to a man and surrendered.


    I made a lot of mistakes.
    - I underestemated skinks and scar vet against my units, although I am just planning a lizardmen army and do know there strenght.
    - My vanguard moves were stupid: I moved my units forward, knowing that they can't stand against the skinks. I could have moved less aggressively, but it was somehow related to the unknown tool and website, making me not want to look up every distance from every unit and so on. Additionaly he blocked on eof my vanguard moves with the teradons. That was a mistake, because I could havedone this too, but vanguarded another unit first. Not a big deal, but I am mad at me making such stupid mistakes.
    - I was so overwhelmed by all his skinks and simply forgot such basics.


    But there were also things that did not work out because of the army:
    - Fast cav was simply not good enough to scape the skinks for a while and there was not much to do with them instead.
    - The warriors were not able to kill the scar vet because of the low strenght. I have to take halberds next time, but building this army I thought that the kights handle everything that need high strenght and the warriors everything that is just dangerous because of the mere number.
    - Having no shooting and not the best magic (against a slann and without a dispel scoll) was horrible and sme how not my way of playing. (I like my magic and shooting with the high elves or my magic with the beastmen.)
    - I had nothing against good armour. S5 is simply not enough.
    - Mark of Slaanesh was not really as good as I thought. Problem was not taking LD-tests, but winnig a fight an Nurgle on the combat units might have helped better.



    I have a list of my models only in German, so I will post it later.


    My thoughts:
    - Lore of shadow: With my (not tournament suitable) highelf army it is great, because spell 2 and 3 do not buff my small units, but debuff an enemy unit and this is like buffing all my small units at once. Lore of Slaanesh on the other side seemed weaker to me and I did not see good synergies there, but I read it maybe twice and haven't thought about it that much, because I was not even considering it to be interesting. (Maybe I did wrong though.)
    - Additional hand weapons or halberds: See above. I thought that armour is something for my knights and mass is for my warriors. Additionaly small units with less supporting attacks from the back seemed to me a good reason to have as many attacks as possible in the front rank. Next time I will take halberds - at least for most of the warriors, maybe, if I will take three regiments, I can take one with additional weapons.
    - Support units: Not sure. The dogs are mainly to block shooting. Then there are four units of fast cav to kill other fast cav and warmaschines and divert opponents. The charrots are supporting, but also good in close combat. So they do have different main tasks, although they are mulit-purpose.


    I will write more on it next time - the post is long enough already ;) Thanks again!

  • Skink skirmishers are a terribly strong and versatile core unit. To fill the core points however, means he needs ~90 skink skirmishers, which further means around 30 of those in a unit. (Max 3 times the same unit choice allowed) He can however also only have 53 of them, given he has no other shooting whatsoever. So that list was likely illegal(for good reason), if his core really was only skinks. He needs even more, if it is skink cohorts, so the shooting limit would also make that illegal. They are also less moveable and could possibly be avoided or surrounded.
    Big skink units on the flanks (thats where the skirmishers usually go) can be broken easily though. You need to attack with two units, in case the first one gets killed by stand and shoot. If they flee, they might not come back to the fight without BSB and General in range. Otherwise probably loose the close combat, since the skirmishers have no ranks to be steadfast if not in a forest.


    You need to be patient with your fast cavallery and wait for the right moment to run past the enemy short range (12") shooting or to attack.


    With Slann (counts as 6) and 3 heros (count as 6) he can only have 28 templeguard. The lizardman heroes are possibly the strongest fighting heroes for their cost (possibly due to low initiative) with 4(!) S5 Attacks in the profile alone and T5 too.

    Dieser Account kann nur über eine @Erwähnung beschworen werden.


    Firestorm Armada
    - The Directorate

  • Thanks, Alandil, for your comment!
    I don't know, if my ETC rule document is complete and up to date and where to find these restrictions.


    I think his core looked like this (exactly 600 points = 25%):


    4 x 10 Skink skirmishers, javelins
    - - - > 4x 70 points = 280 points


    2x 20 Skinks, Full command
    - - - > 2x 130 Points = 260 points


    10 Skinks, Musician
    - - - > 60 Points


    His templeguard unit was bigger than 28, I think. But I don't know exactly how many with the slann.


    The skirmishers were on the flanks and redirected my units. Next to the centre and in the position, that I was not able to attack because of the redirecters (and because my units where bound by the scar vets).

  • I was under the impression you were playing Combat 8, (because your lists on the ealier posts were for C8 ) but:


    Last I checked ETC also had the "max. 3 times the same unit" restriction, which would make 4x skirmishers impossible,
    however only a shooting cap for long range weapons (20" or 24" I think) so it might not be too far off what is allowed. Could also have changed until now, I did not play ETC in a while ;)

    Dieser Account kann nur über eine @Erwähnung beschworen werden.


    Firestorm Armada
    - The Directorate

  • Ah okay. Yeah, my list for the upcoming tournament needs to be built after Combat8, but in this game it was not. Sorry for the confusion!


    But whatever - I am not concerned about his list, although I think it ws not the best matchup for me. I just want my list either to be competitive enough for a tournament or recognize it in time and take something different; by now, I am thinking about asking the organizers to change my registration to Beastmen. But maybe I change my mind, discussing the options here and in the German thread, where have already been provided some good thoughts on Chaos MSU.



    Coming back to the questions, Swordmaster asked:
    According to the Combat8 rules there are no Rulebook scenarios and even more buildings cannot be entered by units. I am not entirely sure, that there are no other special scenarios coming up (for it is my first tournament), but I don't think so.



    Finally a quick overview about my models for the WoC. I have to mention, that I can make smaller expansions (one monster, 10 Chosen, a Warshrine or something like this), if I am convinced by another army concept/list. So we can take it into account, if there is something of high importance missing. But, because the Warriors are not my favorite army and I am expanding my Highelves and getting some Lizardmen for my collection, I do not want to buy a whole lot.


    • 40 Warriors of Chaos
    • 20 Forsaken
    • 2 Chariots
    • 40 Chaos Marauders
    • 10 Marauder Horsemen
    • 1 Hellcannon
    • 13 Hellstriders
    • 25 Warhounds
    • 3 Dragon Ogres
    • 20 Chaos Knights
    • 7 Chaos Ogres
    • 4 Chaos Trolls
    • 1 Dragon Ogre Shaggoth
    • 2 Giants
    • 2 Chaos Spawns
    • Quite a lot of heroes, mages and so on foot and on different mounts (Tzeentch disk, Slaanesh steed, daemonic steed and so on)
    • Chaos Lord on Dragon
    • 2 Demon Princes

    What I don't like is Skullcrushers because of being frenzy and not looking nice. So I can substitute them in fun games, but I don't think, that I want to buy them.
    I hope, that I did not forget anything. Can't tell, how grateful I am, that there are so many people here, helping with these questions in such a great way!

  • hi there!


    Thanks for the answers!


    I know the guy but I have never played him and don't know him well so I can't tell you what he likes to take and how he likes to play. He is ETC -player and in itself it tells you that he is all about army list building. My impression about majority of ETC players I have met is that they put a lot of effort in getting as powerful army lists as possible under the players pack. What is important for you is that you have to assume you will play against a tough army and against an opponent who knows how to use it. It also may contain some tricks that are not that obvious for a casual player and they will use that advantage to the fullest. You will have tough games and rarely they will tell you more about how to improve your skills. They certainly prefer telling you to take certain lists, whatever is hot for ETC rules at the moment. They are simply hardcore players and they don't like sharing their secrets in particular when they train for the tournament.


    The good news is that first, it will be harsh but valuable lesson. And second, that it does not have to be that bad every time. You may have positioned the bar high for your first games but don't get discouraged.


    It was also a tough match up for any MSU force as amount of shooting is really huge and with all the poisonous attacks you are going to suffer a lot. You identified various mistakes which is great because you know what to improve. For example, vanguarding forward and having units obliterated was not a good idea. It is worth remembering that sometimes vanguard back is as good (if not better) idea as any.


    Many small units in the case of the enemy was also a problem for your army as you could not easily outdeploy them and he was willing to sacrifice them as long as he killed your units in the process. How the deployment looked like? Did you deploy as forward as possible? Did both of you spread the armies along the whole battle field?


    Sometimes it may be worthy trying the tactics that works against MSU itself. You see, I have noticed that people started deploying on one flank, leaning against the edge if possible. That prevented outflanking and had local superiority as a lot of my units were further away. It might be the case here. Deploy on one flank, maybe even in two lines to prevent skinks from targeting softer units and move forward.


    His Veterans are a problem and that is why you need at least S5 if not 6 to try and destroy them. They are incredibly resilient but you have tools for the job. Allowing them to tie some of your regiments and even adding more to combat was not helping and with coldblood and good Ld they didn't go anywhere. You need to find a way to contain them. I agree with the assessment that S4 warriors are not enough. I would go for halberds any time since they are more versatile. Think about some high S attacks provided by other models in the army. Maybe Chimera or Shagoth or magic. Chaos does not have the luxury of shooting to soften up the enemy so you have to make up for it with combat. You are good there but you have to make each attack count.


    I think you should try to come up with the list that has more high S attacks and give it a go at a tournament. Don't be afraid to try. It may be deifficult as you still need to learn how units cooperate with each other but it is worthy. Even if eventually you may conclude that MSU is not what you like you will learn to use movement phase much better.


    It seems that some kind of anti armour tools are required for any list. You have the models. Trolls, Dragon Ogres, Shagoth are all quite good in that department, although each comes with their own set of strengths and weaknesses and that has to be taken into account.


    Not being good at army list building myself (I always prefer talking about tactics and particular games :)) here is the list my friend Hinge took to US Masters this year and he did pretty good. It is not "pure" MSU as it has only 11 drops but he is extremely good in movement phase and that may also give you some ideas how the list can look like (along with his comments):



    It is of course just a reference so feel free to tear it apart in the way you want to. But I would trust my friend as he is a very experienced player and frequent tournament goer as well as unorthodox gamer sometimes.


    Don't give up and keep working on the list and your gaming skills. As long as you enjoy learning how to play better all is good!


    Cheers!

  • Hey, sorry for answering that late.
    Your comments on the ETC players really helped to overcome my crisis with the concept and my Warriors of Chaos. That is not the way, I want to play - neither in private nor at usual tournaments. And if I had known that he was such a good player with such an optimized army, probably I would not have chosen him to play against as a first test. And your notice, that it is all about optimizing lists, was exactly what happend afterwards with some other players there. It was interesting, but not entirely my world and way of playing the game.


    Nevertheless - thanks to the advice in this forum - the new list I built should be heavier, I guess.
    I added a chimera, a disc hero and a hellcannon, took other marks (especially Nurgle) and omit some fast and light units. The mage is going to use the lore of death, because of the reducting of LD in combination with the hellcannon (and because he cannot take lore of Slaanesh or Tzeentch, when he wants to join the warriors with mark of Nurgle). It has not that many drops, but I like it and think, that it is worth it.


    So that is somehow the result and I will tell you, how it worked out at the tournament. Thanks again!

  • Hi amadil,


    I didn't want to sound harsh when I talked about ETC players I met. Some of them are great guys and very good players and you can learn a lot from them. However, they are indeed leaning towards efficiency and background or theme is of less importance. Or, as some of them joked "winning" is their theme :) It does not mean they might cheat on you. They simply assume that the opposing player knows the rules as well as they do and if they are going to spot a mistake in your plan, they will exploit it.


    So there is nothing wrong, in general, in playing against ETC player. They may simply be more focused on this particular settings as they use each game as an opportunity to practice and for them, every victory point counts. Once you are over it and don't worry about this more competitive attitude it will be all good. Also, Australian players tend be more easy going too. I don't know Orion though, so I can;t tell how is he at the gaming table.


    As to your army I am looking forward to some stories from your tournament! I keep fingers crossed for you and I hope you will have lots of fun with your army!

  • Greetings!


    Game 8 - Michael - High Elves - Battle Line


    Last game of CanCon! With High Elves being the most numerous of the armies it was difficult to avoid a civil war. I evaded them whole tournament but finally had to face them. However, the great thing was I was about to play against Michael, our own Darth Sabre! It is always great fun to meet another forum member in real life and what is more, we had a score to settle too! I had a pleasure to play against Michael 2 years ago at my first CanCon. Back then I was just beginning my journey with MSU and was lucky enough to win. I was sure Michael was very eager to even the score! :)


    Any time I play against another HE army it is very special encounter. In games like that we counter our strengths in a unique way only so called mirror matches can. However, every time I played against HE it was never the force that fought in similar fashion to mine. That is always a great thing as it feels more like playing against a force with its own army book!


    It was indeed the case this time as well. Michael commanded the following army (thanks for the army list details, Michael!):


    High Elves - Army List



    Deployment


    High Elves - Turn 1


    Outcasts - Turn 1


    High Elves - Turn 2


    Outcasts - Turn 2


    High Elves - Turn 3


    Outcasts - Turn 3

  • High Elves - Turn 4


    Outcasts - Turn 4


    High Elves - Turn 5


    Outcasts - Turn 5


    After-battle thoughts


    Thanks for reading!