MSU-Battle-Reports (English)

  • Greetings!


    Time to move on! This game was played some time ago on UB against Eastern Barbarian and his Empire troops. This time we were practicing for EB's tournament, hence 2500 size of the game.


    Empire - Army List


    Here is my army list prepared for that occasion:


    Outcasts - Army List


    Deployment


    Outcasts - Turn 1


    Empire - Turn 1


    Outcasts - Turn 2


    Empire - Turn 2


    Outcasts - Turn 3


    Empire - Turn 3

  • Outcasts - Turn 4


    Empire - Turn 4


    Outcasts - Turn 5


    Empire - Turn 5


    After-battle thoughts

  • Greetings!


    Before the Masters I attended another tournament, this time the local one, organized in Good Games Canberra. It was Hammer of Dave 2. I attended first Hammer of Dave a year ago as my first local tournament so it is some kind of a special tournament for me. :)


    This time it was organized with the use of a Swedish Comp (somehow very popular now in Oz). As usual there were scenarios but there was also battle comp used for determining the final result of the game. Basically, you had to determine the change in comp score and that change modified the end result either by deducing the difference or adding it, depending whether you had a softer or harder army. I seem to remember, however, that the difference might have been halved too. I will check with the organizer to confirm that!


    I brought the following army list to the tournament:


    Outcasts - Army List


    Larry the Loremaster, level 2, Shield of the Merwyrm, Golden Crown, Earthing Rod, Sword of Might – 300
    Bob the BSB, Dragon Armour, Halberd, Charmed Shield, Potion of Strength, Reaver Bow – 157


    10 Archers, Champion, Musician – 120
    10 Archers, Champion, Musician – 120
    5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spear, Bow – 105
    5 Ellyrian Reavers, Musician, Spear, Bow – 105
    6 Silver Helms, Shield, Musician, Standard -158


    Tiranoc Chariot – 70
    Tiranoc Chariot – 70
    5 Dragon Princes, Musician, Standard, Banner of Eternal Flame – 175
    11 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician - 163
    11 Swordmasters, Bladelord, Musician – 163
    10 White Lions, Musician, Standard – 150
    10 White Lions, Musician, Standard, Gleaming Pennant - 155
    5 Shadow Warriors – 70


    Eagle Claw Bolt Thrower – 70
    Great Eagle – 50
    Great Eagle – 50
    5 Sisters of Avelorn – 70
    5 Sisters of Avelorn – 70


    Total: 2391


    Swedish Comp: 15.2


    The main idea was to test Chariots. I had to make room for them but didn't want to loose my heavy cavalry entirely so I decided to to change core selection as well. Other than that there are all usual suspects in my army list :)


    There were five games to be played over 2 days. Here are the pictures of deployments as a traditional teaser!


    Game 1 - Dark Elves - Dave - Dawn Attack



    Game 2 - Daemons of Chaos - Adam - Battle Line



    [size=150]Game 3 - Bretonnia - Richard - Meeting Engagement[/size]



    Game 4 - Dwarves - Sam - Blood and Glory



    Game 5 - Lizardmen - Simon - Battle Line



    Stay tuned!


    Cheers!

  • Yesterday i had a game with 1500p i had the loremaster and book of hoeth. Enemys can just cast ans cast and cast how are you abkle to stop them?

    Into Battle we ride with gods by our side,
    we are strong and not afraid to die!
    -Ensiferum

  • Hi Goblinspießa,


    With single level 2 you need to adopt a different approach than with level 4. Book of Hoeth apparently makes level 2 as efficient as level 4 but let's assume you have just a loremaster to dispel without any other help.


    It means that usually you will need a dice or two more than you otherwise would use with level 4. because of that I try to pick 1-2 spells from the enemy pool that I really need to stop and ignore the rest. It can be painful sometimes (boy but I hate these cheap Tzeentch magic missiles ?( ) but you need to make up your mind. Then I try to dispel only these. If the opponent throws less dice at each then it is better because I can have more dice to throw at particular spell. If he adds more then it is still risky but doable.


    It is not the approach that works all the time but I find it good enough.


    Another idea is to avoid some spells or make them more difficult to cast. For example, Death Magic can be very dangerous but it has relatively short range. Stay further away and force the enemy to use more dice on spells. Or if possible, out of range no matter if the spell is cast at full range or at its basic value. The same goes with other spells. if you are concerned with certain magic missiles then maybe deploying a few inches back and avoiding them turn 1 at least can be a good thing too.


    Cheers!

  • Hi everyone,


    I just found a youtube video from a very good player (MrMalorian) who is giving tactical advice against MSU armies. For - in my opinion - it is highly important to know counter strategies to your own tactical approach to anticipate and prevent them, I thought it might be interesting to post it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvIuSzRGReI


    So have fun with this and maybe you can tell, if you have experiences with this counter strategy, if it works and how to counter it again.

  • I wrote quite a long reply but then it got eaten by warp :(


    If I have time later to write it again I will but here is the summary:


    He made an assumption that MSU armies are of the shooty-avoidance type. Not true. Definitely not all of them, in fact, not even majority. All the armies I faced or observed are combat orientated and are very capable of tabling the opponents.


    My understanding is that he plays in US where 100Vp is enough to claim victory. That is not the case in many other places and you have to win big to win a tournament for example.


    Because of these assumptions his conclusions about scenarios, terrain and suggested anti-MSU tactics are not correct and can even lead to a disaster if applied against combat orientated MSU force.


    Cheers!

  • Ah, thanks so much for this answer and thoughts. I have not known about this differences between the U.S. and Europe. But I was also a irritated, when he listed Woodelves and Lizardmen, but not Highelves. So the shooting thing might be a good explanation on this.

  • I want to add, that if my opponent would play as MrMalorian suggests i would interrupt his strategy by using redirectors and similar stuff.


    I agree totally with you, swordmaster, when you say that this strategy isn't really able to stop a combat orientated or even a mixed MSU-army like HE.
    I would totally appreciate my opponent giving up steadfastness by deploying 30 models wide ;)


    Gruß Julius

  • Hi guys,


    Thanks a lot for comments! let's try to get the discussion going a little bit further!


    @ arnadil


    I am not sure if all tournaments in US are like that but my friends have mentioned that it is often the case. It is simple win-draw-lose situation. It does not matter if you win by 100VP or 1000VP, it is just a victory. It is also hard to get a draw with that margin. No wonder people focus on different things there.


    In other places, with 20-0 system and different brackets it is also not so uniform. I remember in some places every 100VP brought you to different score. Where I play people often use non-linear scale. 100Vp may be the difference between 11-9 or 12-8 score but then brackets are 200Vp and 300VP later on. In order to get 20-0 you sometimes need 2400+ point difference. Hence the same result in one tournament may be different at another. And that too determines what people take and how they play.


    Because he defined MSU armies only as the type of armies that don't fight but shoot and cast spells, no wonder there is no HE army in his example.


    @ Julius


    Very good points and exactly the same I wanted to make while writing longer reply earlier :)


    Ok, let's have a look at what he used in his examples and how it changes in the case of combined arms or combat orientated MSU armies.


    1. MSU - definition


    As I have mentioned before, his definition is very narrow. I am a little surprised he used it as an example. I know about people from US who do play MSU with success but maybe they are from different areas. A few examples:


    Hinge and his WoC - http://s4.zetaboards.com/cotec/topic/9987941/1/#new - you might register to see that report with pictures. But it is well worth checking anything Hinge writes and he had a topic about WoC MSU in general.


    SmithF and his MSU armies (yes, even Dwarves!) - http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=94537 - none of his armies, even WE, are full of shooting elements. They are there because they are useful but they are minority.


    Eastern Barbarian - http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/index.php?showtopic=11086 - and NickL - http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/index.php?showtopic=11137 are both using DoC in MSU version. Eb started playign with Daemonic MSu when everybody thought it is stupid because daemons can't flee. It is great misconception of MSU. Fleeing may be a tool but it is not vital and often quite troublesome anyway. NickL is ranking very high in Oz and his DoC MSU force was chiefly responsible for these great results.


    2. Scenarios


    I think that subject was also treated in some kind of limited way. He used two examples only, Watch Tower and objectives related one. Both assume you put a unit on hold and let the enemy circle around you while you are laugh at them as they are unable to get them from you.


    While that may be true against the armies he described it is not true against other types of MSU forces.


    First, what if you don't win the roll-off and cannot occupy watch tower from the start? Have you ever tried to get there with multitude of units diverting you from even attempting to get into the contact with the tower?


    Combat orientated MSU armies have their urban warfare specialists too. I have two units of Swordmasters and I assure you that I will happily sacrifice both of them to get rid of any infantry in the building. With 21 S5 attacks hitting on 3+/4+ they really can move many regiments from their buildings. Or defend one very well too.


    if you sit tight on the objective you give away the initiative and allow MSU armies prepare their multiple charges when they want. Would you risk that and allow them to charge you and get rid of your unit any time they want?


    Some scenarios may be more challenging than others but it does not mean that MSU armies don't have the tools for the job. For example, I managed to get a nice victory in the Battle for the Pass against Chaos Dwarves simply because every single unit was unoccupied and I had free space to run towards my enemy. He tried but could not destroy all my units and these that he did were not assault forces but archers and sea guard. Was it easy? Hell no! But having MSU force did help in achieving the victory in such difficult scenario.


    In random deployment scenarios MSU has this advantage that it can compensate for the regiments going to different parts of the board. You can still get a coherent deployment despite that. While in one of my games against VC my friend had his general on one flank and half of the army on another. Who do you think suffered more?


    3. Terrain


    Yes, if you face shooters you want terrain to help you, to disrupt the lines of sight, to apply negative modifiers etc. But in the case of other MSU forces it is the opposite. They will use forests and rivers to get rid of your steadfastness. They will use impassable terrain to set up traps and block bigger units from joining the fight. They will use buildings and such to divide the enemy forces. And yes, they will also use it to minimize casualties from shooting. Terrain is your friend if you know how to use it.


    4. Formations


    Changing formations and adopting to the scenario/opponent is always good thing to consider. But as Julius pointed out, it will play to the strengths of the MSU force. First, you have no steadfast. Second, you allow more units to attack the single regiments of yours. Third, you will have less attack back and you will have to divide them between a few enemies. In this case it is a recipe for disaster and I would gladly charge headlong against such regiment.


    Cheers!

  • Greetings!


    Some time before the Masters I attended a local tournament, Hammer of Dave 2. It used Swedish comp (at least 10) and then used that to modify the final result of the game by adding or subtracting the comp difference between two armies. It also had scenarios.


    I brought the following army list to the tournament:


    Outcasts - Army List



    In the first game I faced Dave's brand new Dark Elves. We haven't had a chance to play against each other yet although we met many times on various tournaments. It was also the first time I had a chance to play against dark kin with their new book. Civil wars are always very bloody and I had no doubts it will be the case this time too. However, with the new book, new units and many other totally new things I was really, really curious about the details.


    We also played Dawn Attack scenario that may but does not have to affect even the most carefully prepared plan.


    Druchii - Army List


    Deployment


    Outcasts - Turn 1


    Druchii - Turn 1


    Outcasts - Turn 2


    Druchii - Turn 2


    [


    Outcasts - Turn 3


    Druchii - Turn 3

  • Outcasts - Turn 4


    Druchii - Turn 4


    Outcasts - Turn 5


    Druchii - Turn 5


    With almost entire army destroyed, Supreme Sorceress orders the retreat while Asur allow for it. This time hated Asur carried the day!


    After-battle thoughts

  • Loosing all fast cav in the first round makes the game ending before it had even started for the Druchii... In my opinion a very optimistic vanguard move with the Riders that costs him the game.
    Seems to me that you had an easy game with your opponents list. I was wondering where he had his points but adding Hellebronn a SS and a BSB is a lot of points. Furthermore having just 2 combat blocks was not good.


    You did really good spreading your forces to the left and right flanks but as already written you might have stayed closer together in the center to take some charges.


    Don`t you have any restrictions for special chars in the tournaments? Never underestimate Hellebronn - she murders everything.

    Universal Battle: Aemkei81


    9k Druchii
    8k Khemri

  • Hi Aem_Kei!


    Thanks for your comments!


    Winning war of support units is one of the key elements for me. If I do and if I do it early, then my other regiments have more room to manoeuvre and they are also unobstructed in doing so. Dave helped me in that regard when he decided to vanguard his units forward. I think it is one of the wrong assumptions some players have. Vanguard does not mean you have to move towards your enemy at all costs. In particular, when you know that you are not going to be first.


    I believe the deployment I had was not bad but I was not decisive enough with Swordmasters to move them in earlier and support flanking regiments. That would have helped greatly.


    Some of the tournaments allow Special Characters and that was one of them. I didn't underestimate Hellebron but I thought it is worth trying to thin down the enemy and help the shooters to finish the corsairs and Hellebron as I did. It was a good charge, powerful and I was close to breaking the unit if only 1 less wound were inflicted. But my opponent rolled high for the additional attacks and she had enough of them to destroy both chariots. It was still worth doing as you saw in the game.


    Cheers!

  • Greetings!


    Game 2 from Hammer of Dave 2!


    Game 2 - Daemons of Chaos - Adam - Battle Line


    In round 2 I was pitched against a very good friend of mine, Adam. We have already played against each other a few times but I think we haven't done so at a tournament yet. Adam has a selection of a few armies and this time he decided to play with very soft daemonic force (at least according to the Swedish Comp of 18! :shock: )


    Daemons of Chaos - Army List


    Deployment


    Daemons of Chaos - Turn 1


    Outcasts - Turn 1


    Daemons of Chaos - Turn 2


    Outcasts - Turn 2

  • Daemons of Chaos - Turn 3


    Outcasts - Turn 3


    Daemons of Chaos - Turn 4


    Outcasts - Turn 4


    Daemons of Chaos - Turn 5


    Outcasts - Turn 5


    After-Battle Thoughts

  • Greetings!


    Game 3 of the day was Meeting Engagement and this time I had a pleasure to play against Richard and his Bretonnians!


    Game 3 - Bretonnia - Richard - Meeting Engagement


    Meeting engagement scenario is really interesting. First, you really don't know what is going to end up in reinforcements. So you have to be ready to adapt quickly, especially if that level 4 does not show up and you are going second :) Then the fancy deployment zones can throw you out of balance as armies can be really close to each other. After all it is only 12" between deployment zones. The good thing is, however, that you know if you are going first or second. At least against Bretonnians as when they prey you automatically get first turn.


    Bretonnians are always a tough nut to crack as their armour and ward saves can deflect a lot of blows directed at them. They are also very fast. Let's see what Richard had in his force in particular:


    Bretonnia - Army List


    Deployment


    Outcasts - Turn 1


    Bretonnia - Turn 1


    Outcasts - Turn 2


    Bretonnia - Turn 2

  • Outcasts - Turn 3


    Bretonnia - Turn 3


    Outcasts - Turn 4


    Bretonnia - Turn 4


    Outcasts - Turn 5


    Bretonnia - Turn 5


    After-battle thoughts

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Ever since this topic came up, i wanted to create a msu-list with my dark elves. Especially when those vile fiends got a new army-book.


    I'm pretty shure that i won't be able to actually try this, because I really really want to finish my imperial army first, but who gives a sh...?
    So this is my first attempt at dark elvish msu tactics.


    I wanted to create a list that allows playing under combat 8 restrictions.... Tough one.


    Lords:
    Dread Lord, Dark Pegasus, Shield, Seadragon-Cloak, Heavy Armour, General
    The other tricksters shard, chillblade, talisman of endurance
    302 Points


    Heroes:
    Master, Dark Pegasus, Shield, Seadragon-Cloak, Heavy Armour, Lance, BSB
    Cloak of Twilight
    213 Points


    Sorceress, Lev 2, Banishing Scroll
    140 Points


    Core:
    5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Shields, Musician
    110 Points


    5 Dark Riders, Repeater Crossbows, Shields, Musician
    110 Points


    10 Dreadshards, Shields, Musician
    140 Points


    10 Dreadshards, Shields, Musician
    140 Points


    10 Dreadshards, Shields, Musician, Guardmaster
    150 Points


    10 Witch Elves, Musician
    120 Points


    10 Witch Elves, Musician
    120 Points


    Special:
    15 Black Guard, Musician
    235 Points


    12 Har Ganeth Executioniers, Musician, Standart
    164 Points


    12 Har Ganeth Executioniers, Musician, Standart
    164 Points


    Reaper Bolt Thrower
    70 Points


    Reaper Bolt Thrower
    70 Points


    Elite:
    5 Doomfire Warlocks
    125 Points


    5 Doomfire Warlocks
    125 Points


    Army total: 2498 Points.


    I dropped the Supreme Sorceress.... I don't think there is a that big an advantage in debuffing or buffing, if your playing msu. At least not as much as in a regular list... Although debuffs might turn out to be usefull, when faced with large units. My soso will be using lore of shadows. Nice debuffs in there and the signature is quite nice. Even shadow steed could be funny with two heroes on pegasi. I thought about lore of heavens but discarded the idea, because i have a lot of good experiences with shadow.


    I build two fast fighters, so i can counter enemy monsters or hunters. Both are not terribly strong, but they should be sufficient. The Lord is able to strike at monsters an weak characters. He's got ASF, and forces the enemy to repeat succsessfull ward saves, increasing his chance to trigger the chillblades effect. Maybe the Ogre-Blade would be a better choice.... didn't really think this through. Whatever... Items are interchangeable.
    The BSB is a classic (heh, the book is not even that old and we already got classics).
    Both Characters are extraordinary fast on their flying steeds. I hope this will allow me to place them, were i need a bubble or counterattack, or maybe just a minor threat.


    Core is quite easy. Fast Riders, Shards to counter enemy riders or other light stuff an some Witch-bombs to..... go down swinging. ^^
    The special category is full of nasty Execs and a "block" of Guards. I didn't give them a banner, cause they only need to stand there and get hit... should work without one.
    2 Reapers might be able to take out one or two heavy guys, before they charge my elves. And the cover a larger area than shards.


    The Doomfire lamers are fast an able to strike hard at smaller units and curse larger troops. They are the reason my sorceress is not a black magic woman. ^^ I have two missiles on agile units, so i hoped this will be enough and focused a little more on curses.

  • I am not too sure about the Chillblade, otherwise it's pretty close to a list that I would play.
    Great against beasts like the hell pit abomination, bad against Troglodon or other creatures with high armor saves and therefor most combat heroes.


    The Black Guard have the bonus that they will be the center of attention in this list, which is a big plus for psychological warfare.
    The only canon targets are the pegasi, so the General might have to duck somewhere sometimes, or make the BSB especially pleasant to shoot at since he hat the best protection we can offer.


    Lore of Death might be a good choice, since the only other real execute for strong single models.

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    Firestorm Armada
    - The Directorate