MSU-Battle-Reports (English)

    Hi guys!


    Thanks a lot for comments!


    @ Aem_Kei


    Well, it is hard to comment on the list for me as I don't play VC but it did feel strange to have that vampire with GW and not much protection. I would have preferred simple Sword of Might instead. But then, maybe there was some plan to use him this way? I think I will ask Mick about that if I have a chance.


    As to Terrorgheist I think it was simply because of the Swedish Comp. The army was already at a little lower score than other armies so I am not sure how big the penalty would be for the beast. But yes, it would be very helpful against them!


    @ Serotonin


    Ups, it seems I made a mistake while changing the army list and simply copy-pasted things without correction. Second unit of DP's didn't have the banner, so there should be no "Full Command" note but "Drakemaster, Musician" only.


    Thanks a lot for spotting that mistake!


    Cheers!

    Hey Swordmaster,


    I am still reading and enjoying your battle reports. Please keep on posting these awsome reports. I just love them.


    Since I have read about MSU I field my highelves as a MSU army. Two days ago I had a battle against a very unusual darkelves army: My highelves faced only three big units (points: 2500) which were unfortunatly tough to eliminate and some chars who were bunkerd in the units. Basically that was the list i had to deal with:


    Dreadlord, 1+, 4++
    Lvl 4, 4++, Dark Magic


    BSB, 1+


    50 Spearmen FC
    2x 30 Black Guard FC


    I know it is easy to play for a draw in this matchup but how can a MSU army win against such an stubborn army. Black Guard will not flee until the last elf is dead (stubborn) and the spearmen are a long time standfeast. Because I had an Archmage with lore of death I was able to sniper the enemy chars. So I luckily won the battle. But I didn't get any points from the units.


    Is there a way for an MSU army to deal with such big units wich won't flee because of the stubborn/standfeast rule (which is quite the same as unbreakable with Leadership 10 and BSB)?

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von chaoskiller ()

    Well i also enjoy every single report :)
    they gave me some nice tipps how to play with my Slaneesh Daemons (which are kind of MSU^^)

    Into Battle we ride with gods by our side,
    we are strong and not afraid to die!
    -Ensiferum

    Hi guys!


    Thanks a lot for your feedback!


    @ chaoskiller


    Thank you! I am glad the reports are enjoyable. I am currently working on game 5 since due to Christmas other activities took priority. :)


    As to your game against DE there were a few things I would have tried.


    1. Focus your shooting/magic missiles


    30 strong infantry unit looks intimidating but these are elves with 5+ armour save. You can deploy a little further in your zone so that he will have more distance to cover. He is more likely to have first turn so it is even more important to make him march longer. If you focus on any Black Guard all your shooting then trust me that after 2-3 turns of combat not many will be there standing. Even more so if you have some magic missiles coming at them.


    2. Overwhelm them with more units


    Weakened Blag Guard, as dangerous as they are, cannot withstand if there are many attacks directed at them at the same time. Use Martial Prowess to form deeper units and attack with more of them at the same frontage. You will direct attacks at a single regiment he has to divide his against more foes, thus limiting his chances to destroy them quickly. Even if you lose some he loses more points if the units is finally destroyed. Since he does not have support units and no shooting you can move on the flanks too. If he forms wide formations it is even better for you too as you can charge with more units at the same time.


    3. Attack from the flank/rear


    It is similar to the above but also worthy remembering that a unit attack from 2 directions cannot reform. You can do the following. Place 2 units in front of the enemy but attack only with the one on the side so that they don't have to hit the middle of the enemy formation. Possible only if you are sufficiently close or if the enemy attacked your bait and pursued/overrun into the unit waiting behind. Charge with another unit on the flank. Now you prevented them from reforming and minimized their attacks back. You actually have a good chance to grind them down now. Even better if you attack from both flanks or flank/rear to do so.


    4. Use terrain


    Steadfast and ranks are not counted when you fight in the forest or river. Try to lure them into such environment and again, throw many units at them. If you win combat (and you will if you engineer the fights to maximise your odds as above) he might not have a good combat result to stick to and pass it even with general and bsb nearby.


    5. Magic


    As it was suggested, Doom and Darkness can be your friend. The problem is to get it through. But you have win-win situation. You can force the enemy to protect his characters from being sniped. Cast these spells first. Get rid of the dispel dice. Then cast D&D. In particular, when you have that big combat coming and the enemy is in the forest. Yes, they are stubborn on ld6/7 but it is not a guarantee. Basically, you try to help your situation as far as you can.


    6. Attack regular models first


    I know it is tempting to kill that sorceress but if you kill more models you can get rid of steadfast. Of course each situation is different. But if I kill more models I can even get rid of the entire unit of BG eventually so there will be no stubborn for her and she will flee anyway. So in that case you can have a cake and eat it!


    In the case of BSB it might be a different story but again it depends. If you have that good combat result penalty coming then it might be worthy risking killing more troops. If he is in the BG and they are going to survive that combat but on the other hand you can direct enough S5/6 attacks at BSB - do it!


    So my basic approach would be to shoot at one unit and weaken it for 2-3 turns, attack with overwhelming force while diverting the other two. Then spread out and move again to repeat the situation, a little more difficult but possible to do anyway. Divide and conquer!


    @ Goblinspießa


    Thanks! I am glad to hear that the reports inspire other players!


    I am currently working on the report from game 5. Hopefully I will be able to finish it relatively soon!


    Cheers!

    Zitat von Swordmaster of Hoeth

    Steadfast and ranks are not counted when you fight in the forest or river. Try to lure them into such environment and again, throw many units at them. If you win combat (and you will if you engineer the fights to maximise your odds as above) he might not have a good combat result to stick to and pass it even with general and bsb nearby.


    It is noteable that stubborn units remain steadfast nonetheless. The Black guard could not care less for a forest :P

    Dieser Account kann nur über eine @Erwähnung beschworen werden.


    Firestorm Armada
    - The Directorate

    While it is true that stubborn overrides steadfast it is never an auto-pass of a Ld test. If they have to take the test it means you don't. If they have to take a test it means they lose more models than you. And even if you have ld10 re-rolled one to take it is always worse in comparison to when you don't have to take it at all! :)

    Sure, winning is always nice. With +2flanks +2rear +attack and multiple standards, which is pretty likely in such a scenario, you could still loose more models than the enemy and win the fight.
    He might have to take one or two break tests, but if your units start crumbling before his horde is dead, there is nothing to gain from winning the fight. Especially the fast and light troops in rear and flanks tend to die quickly.


    If you don't have hex or buff spells to support a steadfast fight, or the numbers to kill off the unit entirely, it might be better not to take the fight, even if you easily win the close combat rounds. The units might do better taking down that spearman horde, for example when a vanguard unit distracts the guard so that the seaguard flank-pressures the steadfastness from the spearmen away ;)

    Dieser Account kann nur über eine @Erwähnung beschworen werden.


    Firestorm Armada
    - The Directorate

    Theoryhammer! Excellent! :)


    Well, I would love to have 2 flanks, rear and other factors to add to win combats any day. Sometimes it even works! Although with stubborn, multiple attack units such as Black Guard I prefer 2 flanks instead. That limits the attack back, in particular when they are formed as a horde.


    Here is the challenge, I will not comment on your comments yet. Instead, I would like to ask how would you tackle that DE army with HE MSU? :)

    Greetings!


    Let's try to continue with the battle reports!


    Game 5 - Sam - Warriors of Chaos


    Back to our own armies! This time I was honoured to play against a veteran ETC player, Sam, who commanded dreaded Cacophonic Warriors of Chaos army. Here is his army list in detail:


    Warriors of Chaos - Army List



    Deployment



    Outcasts - Turn 1



    Warriors of Chaos - Turn 1



    Outcasts - Turn 2



    Warriors of Chaos - Turn 2



    Outcasts - Turn 3



    Warriors of Chaos - Turn 3


    Outcasts - Turn 4



    Warriors of Chaos - Turn 4



    Outcasts - Turn 5


    [


    Warriors of Chaos - Turn 5



    Outcasts - Turn 6



    Warriors of Chaos - Turn 6



    After-battle thoughts


    Zitat von Swordmaster of Hoeth

    Instead, I would like to ask how would you tackle that DE army with HE MSU?


    I would try to set up my units close to impassable terrain, since big units suffer even more from such obstacles. Then I would try to split his army to be able to face 1/3 of it alone, whereas any terrain should be helpful.
    Killing 30 Black Guards takes around 55 Swordmaster hits (or an equivalent fighting force) and would result in roughly 500 winning points, which is the equivalent of 10 eagles. It should take less than that to distract 2 units long enough to kill 30 elves, so there are points to be gained here. I would always try to only face one of those blocks at a time, with Frost pheonix support. Strength 3 or less and no more striking before High Elves Elite Infantry is extremly powerful here. Three minimum sized Swordmaster units could ideally destroy the black guard in one round, or more realistically two slightly bigger units, or different units, in two to three rounds of close combat
    Even when taking a whopping 30 attacks in return, you would only loose 7 and a half infantry elves in the first close combat round, less in the following rounds or if your ASF reduces incoming attacks, so there is a good chance that your units are still capable of taking another fight after defeating the first block.
    Depending on the state of your fighting troops and the amount of diverting units left, you can either repeat the procedure or take the slight win and try to stall the game until the end.


    This of course requires a great movement phase during the entire game - but thats exactly why you would play MSU in the first place ;) The distractions mean sacrificing a lot, but that is definitely necessary here.


    Another option when facing a army list that looks as boring as straight from hell would be saying goodbye and doing something more fun instead. :rolleyes:

    Dieser Account kann nur über eine @Erwähnung beschworen werden.


    Firestorm Armada
    - The Directorate

    First of all I want to thank you for the great reports here, that have inspired me to try the MSU tactics on my own!


    My first battle with my highelves was exciting and afterwards I was wondering, how to play this challenging strategy with other armies. Especially I try to create a Warriors of Chaos MSU list. I don't think, it is going to be as sucessful as elves but it's great fun playing MSU and I want to experiment a bit.
    For it is not directly related to this topic (battle reports and theory of highelf MSU) I have opened a discussion in the Warriors of Chaos section of this board. Of course it is in German but I thought that it might be helpful to point to it in this topic, because on the one hand there might be some German readers who are interested and would not have seen it otherwise and on the other hand you, Swordmaster, might at least feel "honored", that your army concept is spreading all over the board. ;)

    Happy New Year everyone!


    @ AlandilLenard


    Hm, it seems to me you assumed BG needs to be fought head on. Well, the thing is that there is no such a thing as a fair fight and one should look for increasing the odds even further. It is a good point that sacrificing some units that are worthy less points than the regiment you try to hunt down. However, I would like to also point out that I was suggesting a combination of things that together can work nicely and allow you to destroy 30 BG.


    You still block/divert other 2 units. You keep shooting and cast spells at 3rd. They are significantly reduced in numbers so that you can attack them with even greater chance for success and at smaller losses. Then you reform and repeat that. Oh, and you don't need Frosty for that at all! :)


    Cheers!

    Greetings!


    Game 6 - Max - Empire


    In the last game I met Max, probably the youngest participant of Masters. Like me, that was his very first tournament of that kind and he was very excited about being among the best players in Oz. Max took his stalwart Empire troopers to show that humans can fight against any odds. :)


    Empire - Army List


    Deployment


    Empire - Turn 1


    Outcasts - Turn 1


    Empire - Turn 2


    Outcasts - Turn 2


    Empire - Turn 3


    Outcasts - Turn 3

    Empire - Turn 4


    Outcasts - Turn 4


    Empire - Turn 5


    Outcasts - Turn 5


    [


    Empire - Turn 6


    Outcasts - Turn 6


    After-battle Thoughts

    Hi arnadil!


    I have just saw your reply! :)


    Thank you very much for your kind words! I am really happy and honoured that you deem my achievements worthy and inspiring! I can assure you that WoC are great at MSU as well. You will have less shooting but your units are tougher and you can compensate with very good individual characters too. It will be more combat orientated army but I saw it done and it is also very, very dangerous.


    I will try to have a look at your topic in WoC section just to see how the discussion is shaping up. I am sure you will have a lot of fun with the concept and it is always great to create your own path.


    Good Luck!

    Zitat von Swordmaster of Hoeth

    Hm, it seems to me you assumed BG needs to be fought head on.


    I left everything else out to emphasize that a High Elves MSU army would be perfectly able to win against such an enemy even without the obvious answers - magic and shooting. Of course in a real game you would utilize those as well, but sometimes you just don't have that option, after bad magic phases or special deployment rules and terrain, etc.


    The last game looked terrifying for elves, however Flaggellants and war machines proved to be enough points to still get a draw out of it.
    Trying to face the Demigryphs was problematic, which are too fast themselves to get trapped. Those white lions might have been able to replace the fleeing swordmasters on the left flank. However after losing eagles and reavers so early, you might not have had another chance.

    Dieser Account kann nur über eine @Erwähnung beschworen werden.


    Firestorm Armada
    - The Directorate

    Fair enough! Flexibility is very important and one should not rely on a single tool to get the job done!


    In the game against Empire I made deployment mistakes and that, unfortunately was the reason why the whole plan crumbled eventually.