A new Forge World arises

  • Wurden nit von allen diese Taserstäbe mal so in den Himmel erhoben, weil man mit denen so unheimlich viele Attacken generieren konnte?

    Irgendwie sieht man die dennoch nie...

    Ja bei ner 6+ auf's Treffen gibt's drei zwei statt einem Treffer.

    Aber gespielt werden sie (auch heute noch, so weit ich das in den battle reports sehe) wegen ihren Flechette blastern (pistol 5) auf die man dann das stratagem 'Wrath of Mars' spielt jeder Verwundungswurf in der Schussphase von 6+ ergibt ne tödliche Wunde.

    Ich hab sie lieber mit Energieschwertern weil die Idee mir besser gefällt (die sind ne Elite Einheit, die sollte mit ihren Waffen auch durch die Rüstung der Gegner kommen). Was jetzt effektiv ist und was nicht interessiert mich nicht so. Das wird dann in der Situation entschieden. :-)


    Bei 1d4chan haben sie ja ne Menge über die Kataphrons zu sagen.

    Kataphrons

    The big guys of the Cult Mechanicus are closer to tankettes than they are to people: their Ogryn-sized T5 frames make them difficult to remove from an objective, and with 3W your HQs can actually repair them. Their long ranged firepower doesn't suffer the penalty for moving; like a Russ tank group, they ARE the gunline wherever the enemy finds them. This comes at the penalty of advancing only d3"...which you don't really care much about: the only maneuvering they need is usually just to get a line of sight to the enemy. GREAT firepower coming from Troop units.

    • It's worth noting that these puppies can be a huge fire magnet. A smart opponent will point medium weaponry at these guys and frankly, they're not quite as tough as they seem. Point efficiency and multiple wounds don't mean a lot when a punisher cannon can delete a 3 man squad in one round of shooting.
    • To compensate, provide them with the Stygies VIII Dogma to increase their survivability considerably.
    • Or take in units of 6 in Agripinaa to bring the full squad back from the dead if one model survives. With CP to burn this is horribly good on breachers.
    • Or take as Ryza plasma destroyers hoping you'll play a knight list and can make your points back in one round of shooting accepting their won't be a second round.
    • Or Lucius and deepstrike them in guaranteeing destroyers one round of fire.
    • Kataphron Destroyers: Dedicated anti-MEQ gunships. As they trade a measure of protection (4+/6++) for amazing firepower, they will be a prime target for your enemy so they have to be defended.
      • Guns: Heavy Grav Cannons are reliable; Heavy 5 AP-3 deletes infantry, and D1d3 against anything with a 3+ save melts heavy infantry and can even dent monsters and tanks. Plasma Culverins today are just not so good. They have better 36" range But are more expensive , and Heavy d6 shots are unreliable. They only shine when supercharging, becoming able to deal with anything... but they also blow up on roll of 1. Now that's balance!
      • Sidearms: Their Phoshor Blasters are the budget option to use against targets of opportunity. However, Cognis Flamers give Destroyers protection against melee at mere +2pts. Bubblewrap units are still great, but with flamers their overwatch becomes nasty; their main guns already have enough RoF to proc overwatch hits and the stats for it to matter.
    • Plasma culverins are high variance over grav cannons. Their D6 shots make them unreliable and absolutely undercut their usefulness over the grav cannons, even with their higher strength. (High variance can be both a strength and a weakness depending on how well you accept risk.) Anyone running plasma destroyers will need tons of re-rolls. Plasma is also 10 pts more, so with random shots and supercharge killing on 1 they are not what they used to be. Don't let the T5 with 3W and 4+ with shroudpsalm to get a 3+ fool you: these guys are glass cannons and prime targets for anything that mulches heavy infantry. Anything with decent strength or a point or two of AP will turn these guys into spare parts in one go if you don't do something to protect them, even with shroudpsalm. My personal advice is to abuse the [Acquisition at any cost] stratagem to get them to 2+/5++ saves on an objective and hope they can weather the storm with enough guns still intact to do their job, OR (and my personal favorite idea) consider running them as [Lucius], as the immunity to AP1 is absolutely fantastic on them (and its pretty solid overall) and the ability to pay a CP to hide a 6-9 man unit of kataphrons in deep strike is worth its weight in gold, as they have more than enough range to be confident that they can drop in somewhere they can hit their target, and you can even give your dominus the Lucius relic to teleport him to the kataphron gunline without losing his support for the footsloggers turn one, or paying the CP to deep strike him. Also, for 55 points you should always take Daedalosus, especially when you're taking these guys (they're only BS4+ after all).
    • Kataphron Breachers: Trades some firepower for 3+ armour but, most importantly, at discount price. Enough to be heavy speedbumps yet disposable. Breachers bring 9W for 105pts and their Heavy Arc rifles (36" Heavy 2 S6 AP-1 D1d3) are not only basically anti-infantry autocannons, but also tear D1d6 chunks out of vehicles, so they can even help your overworked Onagers. And unlike Destroyers, Breachers aren't defenseless in combat, with three WS4+ attacks using Arc Claws (S6 AP-1 & D1d3 vs vehicles). With those stats, they are a screen by themselves. If you NEED an objective to be positively, absolutely defended, activate Acquisition at Any Cost and they'll be very difficult to remove, with 4A and a 2+/5++ save. (Alternate take if supported by vanguard S6 Ap-1 still wounds marines on 2's and a unit of 6 will kill 3.75 tac marines) their not gonna touch a dedicated melee unit but can still give a bad day to enemy troops or small characters) and now we have unlimited warlord traits prime hermeticon increases their melee output by 50%
      • Torsion Cannons are hard to defend. S8 AP-4 is nice but they cost a lot, are single-shot and D1d6 is somewhat unreliable. Likewise, Hydraulic Claws are like power fists...but with only AP-1 like Arc claws they will struggle to go through their targets' armour Sv, and Breachers aren't dedicated melee units, could throw one into maybe kill Vehicles and Monsters in melee.
      • Agripinaa breachers are really strong if you have a huge amount of CP as a 6 man squad can potentially bring 5 back from the dead and relocate if just one survives. Which considering their tankiness is quite possible. Do this a few times and count the firepower you've soaked.
        • The clue is in the name for these guys though; the above chap is absolutely correct in his analysis for the average game, but GW covers bases for more narrative games too: Fortifications & other Immobile units are auto-hit so when you need to breach through some Fortifications you have at least 9 S10 -1AP auto-hitting hydraulic claws vs the S6 of arcs, and that's 9 lots of 3+ rolls instead of iffy 5+.

    Ich hab also vermutlich das ineffektiveste loadout, aber Plasma sieht einfach cool aus. :tongue:

  • Ja die Ruststalker sind nice. :-)

    Aber die auch noch zu bemalen hatte ich keine Lust mehr. Nachdem ich jetzt hier und drüben über Admech gequatscht hab hab ich aber wieder Lust. :D

    Hab heute aber erst mal hauptsächlich AoS und dann ein paar Necrons bestellt.

    Kann mich mal wieder nicht so recht entscheiden, womit ich weiter machen soll. :-)

  • Aber genau das ist der Punkt mit dem man argumentieren kann: ein großes Ziel würde man normalerweise natürlich besser treffen, allerdings sind die meisten Stellen dieses Ziels so unempflindlich, dass mickriger Pfeil dort getrost ignoriert werden kann.

    Die verwundbaren Stellen sind so klein, dass sie eben nicht besser zu treffen sind als der Goblin/Skink. Mit dem Denken sind sowohl Größe als auch Widerstand abgedeckt. Wenn man ein großes Ziel an einer unempfindlichen Stelle trifft, hat man einfach kein durchkommen, trifft man aber z.B. das Auge ist das nicht unbedingt härter als bei einem kleinen Ziel.

    Klar das kommt einem vielleicht nicht so "realitätsnah" vor und vereinfacht das ganze, aber im Endeffekt kommt was ähnliches bei raus (wenn auch nicht exakt dasselbe): Großes Ziel genauso treffen und verwunden wie ein kleines Ziel (z.B. auf 5 und 4), oder großes Ziel besser treffen aber schlechter Verwunden (z.B. auf 4 und 5 8o).

  • Na ja, Goblins vs Mega Gargant ist vll. auch ein extremes Beispiel.

    Aber dass ein ehemals-KG-10-Charakter jetzt von jedem Goblin auf ne (was weiß ich) 5+ getroffen werden kann (vermutlich in der Menge noch besser) und Gnoblars Drachen und Dampfpanzer verwunden können.

    Klar hat das spielerisch nen Sinn, aber es muss dann auch sehr unwahrscheinlich bleiben und nicht durch buffs oder sonstige Boni verbessert werden können, so dass unrealistische Szenen entstehen.

  • @ Drazk: Mega Gargants? Echt Plural? Wieviele hast du denn geholt? Finde die ziemlich klasse, viele Texturen zu bemalen, auch die Haut sieht spitze aus bei denen

    4 Stück. Je einer für ne SoB (he he) Armee, bzw. vll. mit Schnee Thema damit sie zu den Beastclaw Raiders passen. Und einen extra als Warstomper für's Chaos. Da muss ich noch Ideen sammeln, wie ich den optisch unterschidlich genug hin bekomme. Von dem was ich bisher gelesen habe wird da nicht ohne Weiteres groß was zu machen sein.